164: From Frontend to Backend: Lane Wagner's Journey to Boot.dev

[00:00:00] Intro: Welcome to Syntax. Welcome to a brand new episode of the Front End Happy Hour podcast. Welcome to this week’s JS Party. Live from Ship Shape Studios, this is Whiskey Web and Whatnot. With your hosts, Robbie the Wagner, and me, Charles William Carpenter III. That’s right Charles. We drink whiskey and talk about web development. I mean, it’s all in the name. It’s not that deep. This is Whiskey Web and Whatnot. Do not adjust your set.

[00:00:36] Promo: Hey everyone. We want to invite you to join us at All Things Open. All Things Open is the largest open source tech web conference on the US East Coast. It’s hosted annually in the heart of Research Triangle Park in downtown Raleigh, North Carolina. Target audiences include developers, engineers. Decision makers and open source [00:01:00] community members and anyone else involved with open source software. 4,000 to 5,000 people from all over the world are expected in October. We’re gonna be there. More information can be found online at 2024.allthingsopen.org. I really hope I don’t have to spell that for you.

[00:01:19] Robbie Wagner: What’s up everybody? Finally figured out how live streaming works. Sorry for the delay. We are live here on September 11th. Lane wanted to record today specifically for some reason.

[00:01:30] Chuck Carpenter: Uh, yeah, I don’t know. I think he hates America,

[00:01:33] Robbie Wagner: I think he should start by leading us through the national anthem. Um, I,

[00:01:39] Chuck Carpenter: my country.

[00:01:42] Lane Wagner: Can you imagine?

[00:01:44] Chuck Carpenter: uh, did anybody know I was gonna sing? I’ve actually, yeah. I was gonna, I’m just gonna karaoke the rest of this episode and just let Lane sit there and wait to get a, a word in edgewise. But speaking of.

[00:01:55] Lane Wagner: I’ll need a, I’ll need a lot of this to get through that.

[00:01:58] Robbie Wagner: we do wanna let you intro [00:02:00] yourself and tell the folks listening who you are and what you do.

[00:02:03] Lane Wagner: Yeah, I can do that, I suppose. So, I guess predominantly for the listeners of this podcast, I’m the host of Backend Banter, uh, which recently wrapped up season one. Planning a season two for next year, but there’s a good backlog of episodes for anyone that’s, that’s interested. Both Robbie and Charles have been on the pod.

[00:02:22] Lane Wagner: So, uh, I, I did the rounds before wrapping up Season one if you’re interested in, in Go Developments and backend specifically. That’s, uh, that’s that podcast. And then I’m also the founder of boot.dev. That’s, I mean, that’s my full-time thing. So the podcast has been kind of a, kind of a side project, kind of a, Hey, I need to shill boot dev somewhere, so I better start a podcast.

[00:02:43] Lane Wagner: But you can check that out if you’re interested in learning backend development.

[00:02:46] Chuck Carpenter: you’re a paid she.

[00:02:47] Lane Wagner: I pay myself to shill myself.

[00:02:49] Chuck Carpenter: Right? Right. I hope it’s a good rate. You’re also a former engineering manager and a sub power front end engineer. I don’t know. I’m just reading the notes here. Robbie puts these together so.

[00:02:59] Lane Wagner: that’s, [00:03:00] it’s very, very accurate. Subpar might even be generous, although it has gotten better over the years. It started out pretty rough.

[00:03:06] Chuck Carpenter: That’s fair. Yeah. Well, let’s, uh, take the edge off. I know you’re a shy fellow. Talk about today’s whiskey, which this, this bottle looks kind of nice and

[00:03:14] Robbie Wagner: Oh, Maysville.

[00:03:15] Chuck Carpenter: Mayville. So, uh, old Maysville is from the old Pogue Distillery. This is a rye malt whiskey, which sounds very interesting. It’s a hundred proof that’s bottled in bond.

[00:03:28] Chuck Carpenter: It’s no longer a federal thing, but if you say that, you always know it’s gonna be a hundred proof. It’s actually a very limited availability bottle too. It’s only in Kentucky, Illinois, and New York. Lucky for us, we get our booze from New York and it’s one of the original brands from the old Pogue Distillery founded in 1876 in Maysville, Kentucky.

[00:03:48] Chuck Carpenter: So the mash bill’s a hundred percent rye malt. That’s all I got for you.

[00:03:53] Lane Wagner: That’s a history lesson. This is like the third time I’ve had whiskey in my life, so

[00:03:58] Chuck Carpenter: this is interesting. We’re gonna get [00:04:00] into that some more, but, uh, what? Yeah, yeah. Like jam, like a strawberry jam a little bit. Oof. I hate when you put that in my head first, though. Before I smell it. Look at Lane. Just getting in there. He’s like the third time. And I can’t fucking wait to get some more in my mouth.

[00:04:17] Lane Wagner: This is the alcoholic arc. Start started a mullet. Time to start drinking.

[00:04:21] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, yeah. I was a bad influence in Montana, wasn’t I? I was like pouring it up. Pouring it up.

[00:04:27] Lane Wagner: yeah. Oh, that’s, that is good though.

[00:04:29] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. I’m getting like a little flour, a little like strawberry jam out of it. I’m gonna prime up.

[00:04:34] Robbie Wagner: smells like a grape. Fanta to me.

[00:04:37] Chuck Carpenter: Hmm.

[00:04:37] Lane Wagner: Hope none of my employees are watching the, uh, drinking on the job.

[00:04:42] Chuck Carpenter: Oops. Yeah. They’re like, well this is okay. Ooh,

[00:04:46] Robbie Wagner: it’s five o’clock here, so it’s all right.

[00:04:48] Chuck Carpenter: that is tasty. So it has like, yeah, those floral notes in the beginning for me. Yeah. Some, a little bit fruit

[00:04:56] Robbie Wagner: Some violets.

[00:04:58] Chuck Carpenter: violet. You’re turning Violet. [00:05:00] Yeah. You can make up words lane. It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t have to be serious. But uh, you know, whatever it is to you is your truth.

[00:05:06] Chuck Carpenter: Your truth is

[00:05:07] Lane Wagner: Alan just dmd me to tell me that he is watching, in

[00:05:10] Chuck Carpenter: uh oh. And he’s very disappointed in

[00:05:13] Lane Wagner: he’s very disappointed in

[00:05:14] Chuck Carpenter: And Alan is like, well, make sure you save me some. Okay. Otherwise, I’m gonna report you to hr.

[00:05:21] Lane Wagner: No hr, no HR problems.

[00:05:23] Chuck Carpenter: mm-Hmm. HR is Gusto, which is just a robot. What can the AI do to you? Nothing yet. Yeah. Yeah. This is very interesting though. Throughout, still not kind of landing on, it’s kind of smooth going down, really enjoying that.

[00:05:36] Chuck Carpenter: The combination of being a malted rye too. So we’ve had some like malted barley, a few different malted, uh, skis, but I don’t know if anything’s

[00:05:44] Robbie Wagner: It’s like if you

[00:05:45] Chuck Carpenter: rye. I.

[00:05:46] Robbie Wagner: a bunch of sweet tarts and added some black pepper to them.

[00:05:51] Chuck Carpenter: Hmm. Yeah, peppery is a good one. I still get floral initially when I, when I first like take a sip and get a little like potpourri kind of floral [00:06:00] note, peppery note. Just can’t kind of land on what else, I should just say dried apricots and get done with it.

[00:06:06] Robbie Wagner: You

[00:06:06] Robbie Wagner: should.

[00:06:07] Lane Wagner: stronger than what I’m used to. I mean, I, I’ve mostly had wine since, uh, partaking in alcohol, which is a fairly new, new event for me.

[00:06:16] Chuck Carpenter: So what is that journey? We don’t have to like overly dig into it, but like, okay, you didn’t drink, now you do drink predominantly around wine. You’ve had whiskey, probably a few other spirits a few times, handful of times. What other whiskeys have you had?

[00:06:31] Lane Wagner: I don’t know. I don’t know what they’re called. I’m not sophisticated

[00:06:34] Chuck Carpenter: Were they in plastic jugs or were they like actual labeled bottles.

[00:06:40] Lane Wagner: no. They were labeled bottles, um, at my brother’s house. Uh, we did some shots on Mario party,

[00:06:47] Chuck Carpenter: okay.

[00:06:47] Lane Wagner: a game, do a shot, but he had quite the assortment, so I’m just like doing stuff. He’s trying to, he’s telling me to do that one. Do this one. Um.

[00:06:55] Chuck Carpenter: So he is not like giving you like sw, he’s probably like got a [00:07:00] few things and this decent stuff. Yeah. So it’s like, oh, and you enjoyed that. Shots though are usually like, doesn’t kind of matter. You’re just get this down in a way and get into my head as quick as possible.

[00:07:11] Chuck Carpenter: And then you play a game of like how many shots before you can no longer Mario party.

[00:07:16] Lane Wagner: Correct. And I’m bad at Mario party, so I did end up pretty hammered.

[00:07:20] Chuck Carpenter: Do you? So did you

[00:07:22] Robbie Wagner: per

[00:07:22] Robbie Wagner: mini game, win and loss or

[00:07:24] Robbie Wagner: entire match? Because if it’s

[00:07:26] Robbie Wagner: per mini game, you’re dead after like,

[00:07:27] Chuck Carpenter: Oof.

[00:07:29] Lane Wagner: it’s, it’s per mini game. It didn’t last too long.

[00:07:32] Robbie Wagner: yeah.

[00:07:33] Chuck Carpenter: enough. Like a good hour or two max kind of thing, and then you’re asleep on the couch.

[00:07:37] Lane Wagner: We did have a few CPUs in there though, so like when you’d beat the CPUs, no one would have to drink. So that keeps it going a little bit longer.

[00:07:43] Robbie Wagner: Hmm. okay.

[00:07:44] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, that’s, that’s fair. Make it, uh, somewhat possible to not, uh, just be knocked out in 15 minutes.

[00:07:51] Lane Wagner: Yeah. But to give you just a little bit of the, the history, because you asked, I grew up Mormon or, or LDS for people who prefer the [00:08:00] church to be referred to that way. And I served a Mormon mission down in Paraguay when I

[00:08:05] Chuck Carpenter: Hmm.

[00:08:06] Lane Wagner: 18, from 18 to 20. And then I left the church when I was no, or 25, 24 or 25. And then, so I’ve been outta the church for about five years.

[00:08:14] Lane Wagner: I’m, I’m almost 30 now.

[00:08:16] Chuck Carpenter: you are a baby. I did not know this. Oh,

[00:08:19] Lane Wagner: 30 in a month and a half,

[00:08:21] Chuck Carpenter: finally, Robbie’s not the youngest.

[00:08:24] Lane Wagner: actually. If you wanna hear the whole, if you care, if you wanna hear the whole story, it’s over on Glover Costa has a podcast about religion and tech, and he did, I did an episode with him. I think it was like episode three of the save file. I won’t go into the whole thing, but basically I was a church member and they don’t drink.

[00:08:38] Lane Wagner: And so after leaving the church, I, I now drink, uh, socially, uh, I wouldn’t say it’s a pastime of mine, but

[00:08:44] Chuck Carpenter: No, there’s nothing wrong with that. Yeah. Get on when you’re on a whiskey podcast, you partake and that’s totally fine. It’s interesting and we, yeah, we don’t have to like go too deep into it or whatever else. Especially if you’ve told the story before. We’re all about Nike not repeating the same shit over and over again [00:09:00] here.

[00:09:00] Chuck Carpenter: But it’s interesting that you still refer to it as the church, not a church, it’s the church. There are many churches, you know, Mormon temples, I don’t think I’ve ever seen an ugly one. Like they’re all extremely beautiful buildings. I big into architecture and everything else. And so all of that. But uh, it is still a church and there are many churches but

[00:09:21] Lane Wagner: There’s two reasons as to why that habit is one that probably will never die for me. One is I live in Utah, and so yes, there are more churches, but like, there’s a church, you know what I mean? Like there’s a church, there’s one church, there’s, there’s a Mormon church on every corner. So that’s part of it.

[00:09:39] Lane Wagner: And then the other part of it is just tidbit of Mormon theology. It’s not like a lot of other non-Denominational is not the right term, but there, there’s a lot of Christian faith that kind of ha have the belief that, you know, if, if you believe in the Bible, the New Testament in Jesus, like you’ll be okay.

[00:09:53] Lane Wagner: And these kind of like minor squabbles we have about beliefs don’t, don’t matter too much, it’s more about believing in Jesus. Mormonism is [00:10:00] not that way. It is a, you’re in or you’re out. Either the church is correct or it’s not. And so we say the church because it’s like, okay, you could believe in Jesus and that’s great.

[00:10:08] Lane Wagner: I’m glad we agree on it, but it doesn’t matter. Like you, you need to be, be a Mormon if you really wanna be saved. So it, there’s like a sticking point there about the theology and kind of, you know, the reason why we’d say the church when you’re in it at

[00:10:20] Robbie Wagner: Mm.

[00:10:21] Chuck Carpenter: yeah. If you wanna plan it, there’s only one way. And also, it doesn’t matter what you pick, when you die, there are going to, uh, save you anyway. In the end, you all, you, you get saved.

[00:10:33] Lane Wagner: kind of, I mean

[00:10:34] Chuck Carpenter: I’m sure

[00:10:35] Lane Wagner: a whole thing, but yeah.

[00:10:37] Chuck Carpenter: I have a, a number of, uh, and I mean this in an endearing way, uh, mo friends and so, you know, all good.

[00:10:43] Chuck Carpenter: Plenty of respect there, but, uh, I’m gonna get drunk. Speaking of, Hey Robbie, do you think you could explain to Lane our rating system.

[00:10:55] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, it is one to 14 Pikachu. No, [00:11:00] it’s zero to eight tentacles.

[00:11:01] Robbie Wagner: Zero being being the worst. I just wanna throw this away. Eight being, this is amazing. I’ve never had anything better. Four, being kind of middle of the road and we’ll make Chuck go first.

[00:11:13] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, no, that’s fair. And I’m going to throw in the, like the side thing to Lane is, you can categorize this in any way you want. You can categorize it to the few whiskeys you’ve had just to alcoholic beverages in general. Like how apt would you be to reach for this versus a glass of wine of, you know, your favorite pinot noir or whatever it may be.

[00:11:34] Chuck Carpenter: So feel free to just use this rating system, however it works for you. We have a lot of alcohol and so we tend to segment into whiskey types and things like that. This is a very unique whiskey, so I don’t know whether to categorize it with like a regular rye or to put this as like, I don’t know, we’ve had a number of like malted whiskeys, but then of course like scotch is a malt malted [00:12:00] whiskey, and so I.

[00:12:02] Chuck Carpenter: I don’t know how to categorize it, but I’m just gonna try and say in general, I think it was like 65 bucks or something like that. The price point is great. Flavor is very unique. I’m enjoying it. So as it opens up, I think, you know, I expect it to continue to get better. Would definitely have, again, this is like a solid seven and a half for me as I’m feeling it right now.

[00:12:21] Chuck Carpenter: Like I’m really liking this. I think that I have a few of my go-tos and if I wanted something a little, a little different from that would easily think about having more of this. Yeah. So that’s it for me. Seven and a half. You wanna give it a swing lane or

[00:12:35] Lane Wagner: Yeah. Yeah, I can go next. This is probably the best whiskey I’ve had, which, like I said, probably, probably a pool of maybe three to five different whiskeys. There’s a lot more flavor. There’s a lot more going on. I think the only other whiskey that I, I think it’s a whiskey, is fireball of whiskey.

[00:12:51] Chuck Carpenter: Oh.

[00:12:53] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:12:53] Chuck Carpenter: Um, I don’t think it’s supposed to be consumed by humans, but, uh. It is.

[00:12:59] Lane Wagner: I don’t like [00:13:00] that one.

[00:13:00] Chuck Carpenter: okay. It’s, it, it has a whiskey base and it has a fla, cinnamon flavoring.

[00:13:05] Robbie Wagner: it has Like

[00:13:05] Robbie Wagner: a lot of formaldehyde or something you’re

[00:13:07] Robbie Wagner: not

[00:13:07] Chuck Carpenter: a lot of

[00:13:08] Robbie Wagner: what it is. Yeah.

[00:13:09] Chuck Carpenter: like. Maybe if you don’t ever want to age and or be alive, like you should drink a lot of that. But, uh, otherwise,

[00:13:16] Lane Wagner: That’s the only one I remember from my, from my, you know, Mario party endeavors. That’s the only one I remember the name of. And I like, I like this a lot more than that.

[00:13:24] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:13:24] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. That’s a

[00:13:25] Robbie Wagner: Fireball’s a good shot. Whiskey. You

[00:13:27] Robbie Wagner: don’t want to sip on

[00:13:28] Chuck Carpenter: No, you don’t.

[00:13:29] Robbie Wagner: you.

[00:13:29] Lane Wagner: No. Changing my mind a little bit about whiskeys. I like, like I said, wine has been my favorite. Still. Still probably my favorite just ‘cause I’m kind of a basic bitch and I like sweet things, right? Like

[00:13:42] Robbie Wagner: Oh I feel that. Yeah.

[00:13:43] Lane Wagner: I

[00:13:45] Chuck Carpenter: So now I’m wondering about your wine taste. Yeah. Like, are you drinking like Rio needy or like, and then like white Z or something?

[00:13:52] Lane Wagner: I don’t drink often enough to know the names, but basically when I go somewhere I’m like, give me something sweet and [00:14:00] then it works out usually. But yeah, this, this, this is interesting. It’s not sweet, but it’s got a lot going on and drink it slow. It’s not too powerful, so,

[00:14:09] Chuck Carpenter: Right, right. So what did you give it? In our, in our complex scale? Yes.

[00:14:14] Lane Wagner: Yeah. Let’s, uh, I mean, I’d give it like a six five probably if I’m just rating all alcoholic beverages.

[00:14:21] Chuck Carpenter: Not super sweet, but good.

[00:14:23] Lane Wagner: Yeah.

[00:14:24] Robbie Wagner: I can’t pick out anything bad about it, so I want to say eight, but also like, I feel like I’m just not in the mood to say this is a top of the scale today. So let’s just, I’ll, I’ll match you, Chuck and say like seven and a half. Like I don’t have anything bad to say about it. I’m just not prepared to give it an eight at this moment.

[00:14:40] Chuck Carpenter: I think it’s like the fact that it’s a bit elusive too, that it has limited availability and we have, this also kind of is like, Ooh, yeah, this is special. Uh, so I’m kind of digging that. I don’t know. All right. Yeah, that seems pretty reasonable though. That’s it. It’s a good one. We bought it from DeWine Spot.

[00:14:58] Chuck Carpenter: Do Is [00:15:00] it.com? I don’t even know.

[00:15:01] Robbie Wagner: I think it.co.

[00:15:02] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. DeWine spot online. So if anybody does decide, they’d like to also try it. That’s where we found it. No, nothing special there, but yeah. There you go. They ship all over the place. I’ve never found a place in the United States, the continental United States they would not ship to so far, but we’ll see.

[00:15:20] Chuck Carpenter: Don’t try it to Canada. It, it doesn’t go well every time. All right. Who’s ready for hot Takes?

[00:15:26] Robbie Wagner: I’m always ready.

[00:15:27] Lane Wagner: That’s what I came for.

[00:15:29] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, that’s all, that’s why you’re here. Let’s flip the script. Robbie, I think you should start out,

[00:15:34] Robbie Wagner: okay. We got a new one on here.

[00:15:36] Chuck Carpenter: I got a couple in there. I’m gonna see

[00:15:37] Robbie Wagner: Object oriented programming or functional.

[00:15:41] Lane Wagner: These for me. Do I, do I just jump right in?

[00:15:43] Chuck Carpenter: Oh, jump in. Yeah. Nobody cares what we think. I don’t know if you’ve realized this. Nobody cares. We’re beyond the whiskey. Our our opinions are no longer

[00:15:50] Robbie Wagner: We facilitate. That’s

[00:15:52] Robbie Wagner: about it.

[00:15:52] Lane Wagner: it’s so much more fun being a guest than a host. Sometimes I’m sitting there as a host on my podcast and I’m like, guy, like, I just wanna, I don’t [00:16:00] wanna say all my things, so this will be fun, man. If I had to pick one. So, okay. So here’s the first hot take. I don’t think these things are nearly as opposite as a lot of new programmers think they are.

[00:16:11] Lane Wagner: When you really like break down OOP in functional programming, there’s only like one thing that really kind of conflicts, and it’s the idea of like, inheritance in shared state. But OOP has some really great. Really great tenets. Things like encapsulation and polymorphism, and those things exist within the functional paradigm.

[00:16:35] Lane Wagner: So I guess my hot take would be take the inheritance and the stateful out of OOP, which I get that that sounds like a lot, but everything else that you learn in like an intro to object oriented programming class, pretty solid. But if I had, if I had to pick, I mean, there’s, there’s more good ideas I think in the, in the functional paradigm.

[00:16:56] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I

[00:16:56] Chuck Carpenter: like a go programmer to

[00:16:58] Robbie Wagner: I think inheritance is. You [00:17:00] know, not great. It gets people into a lot of problems, but I think classes are like very easy to grok. The object oriented paradigms, I feel like are easier to follow and explain than functional programming. And like if we could just tell people, like do a composable object oriented style instead of inheriting from your base classes or whatever, like it would be fine, but I don’t know.

[00:17:26] Chuck Carpenter: I don’t know. Is a good, it’s a good, uh, it depends, is what you’re supposed to say.

[00:17:30] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, it does depend.

[00:17:32] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. And always depends. Okay.

[00:17:34] Lane Wagner: problem is a class like, sorry, just to, just

[00:17:36] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, keep

[00:17:37] Lane Wagner: into that class is like the most, it’s like the biggest fucking idea. And I don’t mean like, great idea. I mean like there’s so much that gets bundled into the idea of a class, right? Like if you start comparing it to other entities and programming, it’s weird ‘cause it’s like, okay.

[00:17:56] Lane Wagner: In JavaScript, you’ve got a class and if you squint, it’s [00:18:00] kind of like how you might use like an object of literal, literal in JavaScript or like a dictionary in Python or like a struct and go. It’s also kinda like how you’d use a map and go, right, like key value pairs of things. And then it’s got the whole idea of methods, which again, in go you can use Structs for, you don’t need the whole class Inheritance is, is packed on there.

[00:18:19] Lane Wagner: Like there’s a lot of stuff going on in the idea of a class, which has always been kind of weird to me. I’ve, I’ve always wondered if maybe there’s a different way to structure all the various features of a class. So that doesn’t all have to be shoved into one,

[00:18:34] Chuck Carpenter: Okay, well you brought it up. So this is, this is a good point I think to stick on for a second. And it is just that this is that everybody fucking hates classes now. Functional, pure functions, whatever are awesome or you’re stupid, which is a stupid statement to make anyway, across the board is like, this is a set of tools and you either know how to use them or not, and you use them in this direction or whatever else.

[00:18:59] Chuck Carpenter: It doesn’t mean [00:19:00] we can’t come to the same end, I believe. I believe that to be true. But conversely is that like we fought so hard to get classes in the spec. We faked classes for so long in JavaScript, and now they’re here and they’re dumb and nobody likes them, and it’s like,

[00:19:16] Robbie Wagner: Yeah,

[00:19:16] Robbie Wagner: that’s

[00:19:16] Lane Wagner: so sad for whoever, like pushed so hard to get him in.

[00:19:20] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, that sums up all JavaScript though.

[00:19:22] Robbie Wagner: We’re all like, ah, I hate everything. And then you get it and you’re like, ah, this is dumb. I’m onto the next thing,

[00:19:26] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, because like there’s like shiny new like Zoom squirrel, squirrel happening all the time at such a crazy rate, and the spec takes a long time to update and you know, continue along and like kind of morph. There’s no patience anymore, which is why I feel like. I’ve started to look at a lot of like the old is new again, and that’s Carson’s fault actually, because this whole like Hypermedia thing and whatever else, like the base of the internet are these things and they still exist and they actually still work pretty good.

[00:19:58] Chuck Carpenter: Maybe don’t overthink it. Oh, [00:20:00] too late. We’ve been overthinking it for a while, but anyway, I digress.

[00:20:03] Lane Wagner: Yeah, I think JavaScript and c plus plus, at least in my mind, they kind of fall into this little category of like, they just want to have everything for everyone. Like every feature, like if you think, if you think you might want to program. A certain way it seems to make its way into these languages. And of course that has the weird side effect, or I should say the unfortunate side effect of there being just a lot of different ways to do the same thing in the same language.

[00:20:30] Lane Wagner: And you know, maybe for JavaScript that is the right call because we’re all kind of forced to write JavaScript anyways because it’s the only thing that really runs. I know this is Wasm, but like, it’s the only thing that really runs in a browser. And so maybe supporting different paradigms is inevitable, just ‘cause everyone’s, everyone’s forced to touch it.

[00:20:46] Lane Wagner: But.

[00:20:47] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah. I mean that’s, it’s been forced to, it extend its grasp and reach for so many reasons. I’m not convinced that the same reasons apply of why it started [00:21:00] to reach in that way. I don’t know. I mean, it depends, but we are down this like lane of complexity in a certain way of doing things and definitely like a way of thinking that, and I could be wrong, of course, but.

[00:21:15] Chuck Carpenter: I think that every once in a while you should stop and think, like, why am I doing this and is this the right way to address that? I don’t know.

[00:21:26] Robbie Wagner: No. Stopping and thinking is never a good idea.

[00:21:28] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, don’t do that. Just to take whatever Jack GPT says and drop that in. It’ll be fine. But I need to, I need to ask this important question though, which is, it is, yeah.

[00:21:39] Chuck Carpenter: It, it kind of matters. We could probably just end the stream if it doesn’t go well. But

[00:21:43] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:21:44] Chuck Carpenter: Tailwind or vanilla CSS,

[00:21:47] Lane Wagner: Oh, tailwind for sure. And I can give you a little bit. Yeah, I can give you a little bit more. First I wanna say this is coming from someone that shoes. Shoes, is that the right word? God, that sounds [00:22:00] so sophisticated. That’s not right. That can’t be right. That hates, hates frameworks and tries to be a very minimalistic programmer.

[00:22:08] Lane Wagner: It’s very much kind of a go philosophy, which I’m predominantly a go programmer. And so I feel like the fact that I, that I’m really into Tailwind says something about it. I hope I used some CSS kind of frameworks before Tailwind, mostly Bootstrap, as we mentioned at the outset, I’m a terrible front end developer, an even worse designer, so it’s, it’s pretty bad.

[00:22:32] Lane Wagner: And when I, I used Bootstrap, it was like, okay, great. Like I can just use these styles and then of course I’m working on a team. It’s like, oh, we can’t, we can’t use those styles. Like we have our own styles. And I’m like, ah. Shit. All right, so I’m, I’m writing vanilla CSS and then of course I was introduced to SaaS and Less.

[00:22:48] Lane Wagner: And so I start writing these frameworks and then I compile the CSS. And basically for about five years, I hated CSS more than any other programming language, just because I felt like it was the least [00:23:00] clean and maintainable thing out there. Like it was just so hard. There’s all these different patterns, right?

[00:23:07] Lane Wagner: Like BM to try to keep it all, keep it all nice and organized and it just never worked. The best success that I’ve had has been with Tailwind for two reasons. Number one, it’s not really a framework in the sense that bootstraps a framework, ‘cause it doesn’t tell you what styles to use, right? It’s utility classes thing.

[00:23:25] Lane Wagner: And so I almost look at it as a competitor to something like BEM. It’s a competitor to a convention for how you’re gonna write CSS. And I think the idea of just owning up to the fact that, hey, basically every element. Is its own special thing. That’s just how it kind of works out in the end. Yeah, there’s some shared stuff, but for the most part, it’s all edge.

[00:23:48] Lane Wagner: It’s edge cases all the fucking way down. That’s why CSS is so hard, and I think Tailwind kind of owns up to that, and so it ends up being a good kind of philosophy for, for

[00:23:59] Chuck Carpenter: [00:24:00] Yeah, because scope and the cascade is hard to play against and we’ve had all of these different ways to try to scope to deal with the cascade and talked about like you mentioned, WASO or whatever else, like modules being scoped and that solves a bunch of things. But in the interim, I do think that like Tailwind to a degree can help you scope or override in context.

[00:24:24] Chuck Carpenter: And I like that the naming is solved ‘cause maybe you don’t totally agree with it, but come up with a better one. Oh you haven’t. That’s why it’s fucking popular. Um, you know, and uh, Robbie said this a couple of times, which I think is a really good point, which is the tailwind docs are so good, they help you be better at CSS and they have like nice

[00:24:44] Robbie Wagner: CSS all the time.

[00:24:45] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. So it’s sort of like this is a great system for someone who isn’t like. An expert in CSS and who’s trying to like, push things on like code pen or whatever else. And you know, like folks on Twitter, like, uh, [00:25:00] Margy and, and Jay and the Coyer, you know, for years or whatever else, doing cool shit in it, right?

[00:25:06] Chuck Carpenter: And showing you a different pattern and pushing the boundaries and that’s, that’s great, but that’s not most people’s job and primary job. So for making CRD apps and some cool animations, tailwind is awesome.

[00:25:18] Lane Wagner: there are abstractions that just hide what’s going on underneath, and then there are abstractions that that make it easier to do what’s going on underneath. And I think tailwind is one of the few examples of an abstraction that makes it easier to do what’s going on underneath. But doesn’t hide it. You know, you as a developer are growing and learning as you use it, and that’s not the case for all abstractions.

[00:25:40] Lane Wagner: Again, why I am always so hesitant to, to add them to

[00:25:43] Chuck Carpenter: That’s true because like jQuery was really great to help you with Dom manipulation across. Browsers, but there were some abstractions there to make it magical and consistent across that weren’t completely transparent, of course, unless you dug into the source. Hmm.

[00:25:59] Robbie Wagner: Which is true with [00:26:00] all JavaScript frameworks, but

[00:26:01] Chuck Carpenter: Well, fine. Moving on, Robert,

[00:26:06] Robbie Wagner: get Rebase or get Merge.

[00:26:08] Lane Wagner: Oh, this is a, this is a good one because, so the Primo recently released his get course on

[00:26:14] Robbie Wagner: Wait, who?

[00:26:15] Chuck Carpenter: who is

[00:26:16] Lane Wagner: I dunno if you’ve heard of this guy. He’s like,

[00:26:18] Chuck Carpenter: What does

[00:26:18] Lane Wagner: I don’t

[00:26:19] Chuck Carpenter: like when he is streaming? Is it kind of like this?

[00:26:22] Lane Wagner: It’s kind, it’s kind of like that, you know, really small time. Really small time guy.

[00:26:29] Chuck Carpenter: yeah. He’s a very nice fellow, so I’m, I only make fun of those that I like. Notice I never make fun of Robbie. Yeah,

[00:26:35] Robbie Wagner: that’s true. No, you make fun of, well, I don’t know.

[00:26:39] Robbie Wagner: Maybe not make fun You don’t do Im impressions

[00:26:41] Chuck Carpenter: of people out, so No, I don’t. Well, if I was to do an impression of Robbie, it would be like, I’m really excited right now. I like this whiskey Ember is the best.

[00:26:53] Robbie Wagner: I don’t, I don’t have any space in my brain for emotions. I only have code in there, so[00:27:00]

[00:27:00] Chuck Carpenter: And, and, yeah. Yeah. And Mario car, uh, Wagners are just like that, you know?

[00:27:07] Robbie Wagner: Oh man. Yeah. We only ship. Yeah,

[00:27:10] Lane Wagner: Yeah.

[00:27:11] Chuck Carpenter: some Wagners made it out west. Some stuck around Virginia. I don’t know.

[00:27:15] Robbie Wagner: there’s Wagner’s everywhere. I feel like my first and last name are like one of the most common of both. ‘cause

[00:27:21] Robbie Wagner: like Robert is always like the most common like male name, and then Wagner’s gotta be pretty high on the like last names.

[00:27:28] Chuck Carpenter: What generation though, because like, is it since the actor or prior to the actor?

[00:27:34] Robbie Wagner: Well, the specific combination, I’m unsure,

[00:27:37] Robbie Wagner: but Robert on its own has been number one since like 1920

[00:27:42] Robbie Wagner: or something

[00:27:43] Chuck Carpenter: Bobby.

[00:27:43] Lane Wagner: number one. I didn’t know that.

[00:27:45] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, it may, it may be in the top five now, like not as

[00:27:48] Robbie Wagner: popular, but, ‘cause we were looking up baby names for our son like a couple years back and it was just like, what’s the most popular one, you know, all these times.

[00:27:56] Robbie Wagner: Like Robert, Robert, Robert, Robert, Robert. Like, yeah, we’re definitely not gonna do

[00:27:59] Chuck Carpenter: And then it’s like, [00:28:00] shit, like Braden and Weldon and like whatever. Trying

[00:28:03] Robbie Wagner: don’t think Those are, no, they’re they’re not in the top five.

[00:28:06] Robbie Wagner: Like those went up a lot,

[00:28:08] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. I was making jokes anyway. You weren’t in, oh, you didn’t answer the question though.

[00:28:13] Robbie Wagner: Hmm.

[00:28:14] Lane Wagner: So anyways, prime gen, great guy. He made a course, he made two courses on Git that we released on boot dev, and I helped edit those courses, produce them, get them published. And I was a merge guy before these courses. Not for any particular reason, just because the few times that I’d rebased, ah, it was hard.

[00:28:34] Lane Wagner: It was hard and things happened and it scared me and it, it put me in this weird state where I’m like, rebasing, right? Like the command finish. And I’m still in this rebasing state. It’s like, don’t merge when you’re in that rebasing. Just like stuff right. And I’ve always worked at smaller companies where frankly, you know, being a get guru’s not as important because there’s just not that many developers working on the same project.[00:29:00]

[00:29:00] Lane Wagner: And you can kind of just get away with commit, push, pull, like you’re, you’re very basic stuff. I never really was forced to learn advanced get stuff. So anyways, I took that course and taught me a bunch of stuff and I started rebasing and a couple of my problems went away when I started Rebasing.

[00:29:18] Robbie Wagner: Nice.

[00:29:19] Lane Wagner: Uh, in particular, we, we do a lot of content on boot dev obviously, and we store in GI and we use the get history to show like when a lesson was last updated and merge commits.

[00:29:34] Lane Wagner: We’re kind of fucking that number up.

[00:29:36] Chuck Carpenter: Oh,

[00:29:37] Lane Wagner: Uh, and so by removing, removing, merge commits basically solved a lot of problems. And so like my take is like, it actually doesn’t matter that much most of the time, but I do prefer rebasing now.

[00:29:49] Chuck Carpenter: so I. Did learn through larger teams, larger companies. And senior engineers. Senior developers. Sorry. I did develop

[00:29:57] Robbie Wagner: have a professional engineering license?

[00:29:59] Chuck Carpenter: I think [00:30:00] so. I honestly think so. I think it’s like, why are you appropriating a title that is, it’s just made up out of nowhere. Like who decided it was engineer? What are you engineering software?

[00:30:10] Chuck Carpenter: I mean, I guess, but like maybe we do need to legitimize it and a bunch of other thoughts and questions around that one. But anyway, yeah, I had to get some get FU because it wasn’t a large org with lots of people and also seniors that would like tell me to RTFM and figure it out and do it right and things like that.

[00:30:28] Chuck Carpenter: And so you learn about like rebasing and uh, I actually, every time I pull a master into a branch, I do it through a rebase.

[00:30:38] Robbie Wagner: You mean Maine, right?

[00:30:39] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. And yeah. Sorry. That’s true.

[00:30:42] Robbie Wagner: Gotta keep the, these Gen Vs in line Here

[00:30:45] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, well, I, I’m working on it. I’m old. I’m almost, uh, I’m almost like I’m coming up on like half a century. What do you want from me?

[00:30:53] Chuck Carpenter: Oh, cherry picking. Super powerful, super fun. You know, doing that like through re rebates and stuff too. It was kind of fun. [00:31:00] So, uh, I don’t know what my point was, but yeah, learn the hard way. I think even if you don’t use your tool in that way, learning how your tool works and what your options are, if you get fucked, is kind of nice.

[00:31:11] Lane Wagner: Yeah.

[00:31:11] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Thanks. Prime.

[00:31:13] Robbie Wagner: being consistent with your team is important

[00:31:15] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. I think at the end of the day too, what is everybody doing? Just follow that. Don’t be an asshole

[00:31:19] Robbie Wagner: someone merges Maine into their branch,

[00:31:22] Robbie Wagner: but then you like squashed and merged a thing into Maine,

[00:31:26] Chuck Carpenter: yeah,

[00:31:27] Robbie Wagner: you’re all fucked

[00:31:27] Robbie Wagner: like so.

[00:31:28] Lane Wagner: don’t do that.

[00:31:29] Chuck Carpenter: yeah. Don’t do that. Yeah. Be a good citizen. That is, that’s generally my, like, I have an opinion, but if I come into a, a team that’s doing something different, follow them. Like they have some reasons, or at least like the consistency is important, so.

[00:31:44] Lane Wagner: Yeah, that bit on Master and Maine. I just have kind of a funny anecdote. So we shipped this course and the way Prime gave it to me was to have students start out on Master, because that’s the default for Git. Now this is a very [00:32:00] common misunderstanding. The default for Git. Still master the default for GitHub is Maine.

[00:32:07] Lane Wagner: So anyways, we, we shipped the course with, with Master, and then what happens is some way through the course we introduce you to GitHub and at that point we actually have you switch and we kind of explain the history and be like, Hey, just so you know, like, you know, the default on GI is master, the default of GitHub is Maine.

[00:32:21] Lane Wagner: So many comments on that first lesson of like, this is wrong. The default’s been changed to Maine, to the point where we had to add a note. It’s like we know that GitHub changed to Maine. We’ll get to that later.

[00:32:34] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Be patient. Slow your

[00:32:36] Lane Wagner: get comments

[00:32:37] Chuck Carpenter: slow. Slow your high horse. Okay.

[00:32:40] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:32:41] Chuck Carpenter: I know

[00:32:42] Lane Wagner: we still get ‘em, it doesn’t matter. People don’t read the note. They’re just

[00:32:46] Chuck Carpenter: I make these mistakes a

[00:32:47] Robbie Wagner: fact, I’m gonna go comment right now.

[00:32:49] Chuck Carpenter: It’s kind of like you saying the church, right? It’s like what you’re used to for X amount of your life. It’s like, you know, my development career has been master for like a pretty long time, [00:33:00] as long as I’ve been doing Get It was master of course.

[00:33:02] Chuck Carpenter: And yeah,

[00:33:03] Robbie Wagner: these days change the meanings of

[00:33:05] Chuck Carpenter: branch and yeah, I intend to be better, but sometimes I’m not gonna get your pronouns right.

[00:33:12] Robbie Wagner: Trying matters.

[00:33:13] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. And that’s it. That’s all I can commit to is to, to do better. What I wanna know though, if I’m trying to become better at the backend computer science fundamentals, should I go to Boo Dev or Q Vault?

[00:33:29] Lane Wagner: You should go to Boo Dev. I think if you go to Q Vault

[00:33:32] Chuck Carpenter: It redirects. Yeah. Except for some of the blog entries. Those end up being like some of your stuff on Medium.

[00:33:37] Lane Wagner: just too many for me to keep track.

[00:33:39] Chuck Carpenter: you was like, I don’t, yeah. No shit. Have you done this route? You should find him on Medium and see how many articles are there over like the last four years or so.

[00:33:49] Robbie Wagner: Is it a lot?

[00:33:50] Chuck Carpenter: That’s a lot. We should be embarrassed with how

[00:33:53] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Would you like to write some for us?

[00:33:56] Chuck Carpenter: I’ll just say like, I don’t

[00:33:57] Lane Wagner: There’s a lot of bad ones in there. Th [00:34:00] this is like something I’m a big believer in, if you’re at all interested, like I’ve always liked to write, but reality is I was a really bad writer for a long time, but you write 300 articles and you let people roast you on Reddit and Hacker News, you’ll get good eventually.

[00:34:16] Chuck Carpenter: you’re a brave soul. You know, there’s not a lot of stuff that I would actually, I’d read Hacker News posting on Hacker News. Like an actual main post. Yeah. That shit. That’s, uh.

[00:34:28] Lane Wagner: a few of them go big early on. That’s actually why I got excited about it was I, I, I remember specifically I wrote one on Elliptic Curves because I was interested in how elliptic curves work for cryptography, and uh, it did really well.

[00:34:42] Chuck Carpenter: Don’t you smart flex us. Don’t smart flex us. I don’t know what a fucking elliptic curve is. I guess I’ll have to

[00:34:47] Robbie Wagner: Well it, it’s like a treadmill, but it has the arms.

[00:34:51] Chuck Carpenter: Oh, is it like the Gazelle? Is it like the gazelle to uh, what’s it was this guy named Tony something and he was selling you the Gazelle?

[00:34:58] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. I do remember that. [00:35:00]

[00:35:00] Chuck Carpenter: with the long hair, like

[00:35:02] Lane Wagner: Dammit.

[00:35:04] Chuck Carpenter: Oh, those are different things. Jokes are the only thing I’m good at. But, uh, anyway, so I’m glad we solved that. Do you wanna move on from hot takes, Robbie? I dunno.

[00:35:14] Robbie Wagner: Oh yeah. We probably should.

[00:35:16] Robbie Wagner: Uh, Well, I mean this one will be quick. we We, should say,

[00:35:20] Robbie Wagner: what do you think about nested turn areas?

[00:35:22] Chuck Carpenter: Okay.

[00:35:23] Lane Wagner: generally, I’ve, I’ve always been against them and I’ve yet to see a place where I felt like they, they were really readable in the wild. That’s it. I’ve, I saw someone like format one correctly, where like it was all, you know, I don’t know, the spacing and everything, and the invitation was all done in such a way that it, it was fairly easy to read.

[00:35:42] Lane Wagner: My formatter doesn’t do that by default, so don’t fucking do it in my code base. I don’t know. I don’t know what to tell you. I’d rather just not.

[00:35:50] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I mean, if Elon Switch statements exist because they look nice,

[00:35:54] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, before we had Formatters though, so on that, because I can remember like seeing [00:36:00] some at times that I thought were like really clever. I’m like, there’s a lot going on here, but oh wow. I can actually kind of read through that and this was more like sublime text, whatever back in the day before we had format on save and we agree on editor configs and some other stuff.

[00:36:17] Chuck Carpenter: Like you would see some of that and be like, oh, okay, yeah, I guess you’re clever, good for you approved. But in general, no, you don’t see that. And especially not anymore.

[00:36:27] Lane Wagner: it’s hard to think about ‘cause I have to go, okay, wait, that’s the one that is when it’s true. And then I go to the next one. Okay. And that’s the one when it’s false and it’s just harder to think about. And I don’t know, I’m a guard claw person myself. I’m a go programmer. I, you probably could have predicted

[00:36:43] Chuck Carpenter: yeah. So you don’t mind, uh, TypeScript. Then it’s some guards and things of that nature. There is some overlap there, so, yeah. Yeah,

[00:36:51] Lane Wagner: Big, big fan of TypeScript over over JavaScript, that’s for sure.

[00:36:54] Chuck Carpenter: that’s fair.

[00:36:55] CTA: This just in! Whiskey.fund is now open for all your merch [00:37:00] needs. That’s right, Robbie. We’re hearing reports of hats, sweaters, and T-shirts, as well as a link to join our Discord server. What’s a Discord server? Just read the prompter, man. Hit subscribe. Leave us a review on your favorite podcast app and tell your friends about our broadcast. It really does help us reach more people and keeps the show growing. All right, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[00:37:28] Chuck Carpenter: This is a question that I, uh, I’m not gonna take full credit for,

[00:37:31] Robbie Wagner: this question has a lot of words to it.

[00:37:33] Chuck Carpenter: it has a lot of words, but just think about it. Okay. So there’s a ton of learning material online, and I think it’s addressing like some of the shortcomings and high cost of boot camps. You have one of these platforms, but it skews more to the backend, which is great ‘cause that’s a good way to like focus on that content versus become a React developer, yada, yada, yada.

[00:37:57] Chuck Carpenter: But there’s like a lot of platforms, resources, [00:38:00] tooling, whatever else to make things easier for folks trying to come into programming and come into web development or whatever kind of development. What do you think are some of the best platforms? And maybe it is your own, I don’t know. ‘cause I don’t have a free code yet to go deeper, but

[00:38:15] Lane Wagner: I just made you one. I could read it out, but it’s like 28 characters long,

[00:38:19] Chuck Carpenter: okay. Yeah, you,

[00:38:20] Lane Wagner: I’ll probably have to paste it somewhere.

[00:38:22] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, maybe you want to do that or read it out and see who’s paying attention. Because as on Wheeler can say, if you say your own phone number, you’re gonna get text messages from random people. Included me, but uh, so yeah, like, okay, I’m an experienced developer. I’ve been in technology in the web for 20 plus years in various, you can say like various areas of that though.

[00:38:44] Chuck Carpenter: ‘cause I started out as like a webmaster web designer, but people who are further in their career, I don’t know that anything is like, maybe it’s a marketing thing or whatever else. Like what is gonna provide them with like better tooling and better learning? Is it the same [00:39:00] platforms do you think? Or is there something else that just needs to be geared towards?

[00:39:03] Lane Wagner: Let’s be clear, bud Dev is the best place to learn.

[00:39:07] Chuck Carpenter: Okay.

[00:39:08] Lane Wagner: Just kidding. Just kidding.

[00:39:09] Chuck Carpenter: let’s just say you’re being objective and not thinking about like, feeding your children or whatever else. But, uh, I don’t even know if you have kids actually, but you’re a mor, you are a former Mormon. You probably have six anyway.

[00:39:21] Lane Wagner: I’ve got two and a third on the way, but,

[00:39:23] Chuck Carpenter: Fair enough.

[00:39:25] Lane Wagner: they, they are hungry.

[00:39:29] Chuck Carpenter: You’re a big guy, so that fine. That tracks.

[00:39:31] Lane Wagner: You are not wrong. Okay, so a few things. First of all, I just pasted your codes in the chat, so you can’t complain anymore about me not getting you the codes. There’s two of them there. It’s a year. It’s a year, year on the platform.

[00:39:42] Chuck Carpenter: If I can’t do in a year, I don’t deserve it. Okay.

[00:39:45] Lane Wagner: True. That’s true. Okay, so what are the best platforms? I like to break things down a few different ways. So there’s like, if you’re trying to get into programming, you can go to college. That’s one way you can go to a bootcamp. That’s one way. And then you could learn online. [00:40:00] That’s like the third way. And, and there’s, I’m sure there’s like some other ways like maybe somebody’s nice enough to teach you in person, but like those are the three main ways.

[00:40:07] Lane Wagner: And the way I think about, it’s like, in my opinion, first of all, like traditional education, there’s a lot of problems there. I won’t get into all of them, but it’s not, we could spend many podcasts just talking about all of the issues with student loans and with whole generation that I think expected something out of college that was different than what necessarily is the actual life changing result.

[00:40:31] Lane Wagner: But my basic take is college is still a good way to get into programming if you’re 18 and specifically if you can do it without going into massive debt. Right? So like I went to a local community college, got a CS degree in four years and got out and like I would do it the same way again. I had a scholarship.

[00:40:51] Lane Wagner: I was able to go for very cheap.

[00:40:53] Chuck Carpenter: You didn’t get into BYU.

[00:40:55] Lane Wagner: Got the, it wasn’t BYU.

[00:40:58] Chuck Carpenter: You didn’t get into BYU.

[00:40:59] Robbie Wagner: [00:41:00] Yeah.

[00:41:00] Chuck Carpenter: No, I think that’s a very valid point in terms of college because like, okay, even for, I can remember like the Economist or whatever, they have like these annual things and it’ll talk about like if you’re gonna get an MBA, there’s only like a handful or so of schools that are, give you an actual ROI on that.

[00:41:18] Chuck Carpenter: And that kind of goes across the board for many disciplines. Okay. If you’re gonna go to MIT or Stanford, maybe that matters for computer science, for some other things. But if in

[00:41:29] Robbie Wagner: like it doesn’t matter though. I feel like none of them matter with the exception of like if the place you’re interviewing, if that guy went to MIT, he might have some bias towards hiring you versus like, I feel like everywhere has pretty good programs. Not everywhere,

[00:41:46] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, no,

[00:41:47] Robbie Wagner: you don’t have to go to the top three places to be like viewed as

[00:41:50] Robbie Wagner: a great

[00:41:51] Chuck Carpenter: you’re in an interview pool and whatever else, I think things are somewhat equalized. I think folks coming out of those schools have the opportunity to [00:42:00] build businesses before they graduate and have a platform and

[00:42:04] Robbie Wagner: That’s

[00:42:04] Chuck Carpenter: connections right away. So that’s something else altogether.

[00:42:07] Chuck Carpenter: I’m not even talking about the quality of the program. I think if you know someone to help you read the book and get the fundamentals down, that can happen. Like you can have great teachers anywhere.

[00:42:16] Lane Wagner: So I didn’t go Ivy League, I went to like the seventh best school in Utah, which is like, eh, right? Like it’s, eh,

[00:42:23] Chuck Carpenter: it’s fine though, right? Like.

[00:42:25] Lane Wagner: but my take is basically, yeah, if you go Ivy League, you’re going for not the education,

[00:42:33] Chuck Carpenter: For the connections.

[00:42:34] Lane Wagner: undergraduate requirements are basically the same everywhere. You’re going to meet some incredible people there, and a big factor.

[00:42:43] Lane Wagner: To me would be like, are mommy and daddy funding it for you? Right. Like, had I been accepted to Stanford, I, I wouldn’t have gone, I’m too fucking cheap. Like my mom and dad didn’t pay for my college. I, I got like a

[00:42:54] Chuck Carpenter: Good for you. Yeah.

[00:42:56] Lane Wagner: and I put myself through and I worked at a restaurant and [00:43:00] like, I do it the same way again unless my parents were offering to, to put me through, in which case, yeah.

[00:43:05] Lane Wagner: Like, sure, I’d, I’d try to go to Stanford if I was accepted, but,

[00:43:08] Chuck Carpenter: anything, everything costs the same, then Sure.

[00:43:12] Lane Wagner: Yeah. So yeah, my take is basically like, it’s a really good option if you’re, again, if you’re 18, if you’re, if you’re super young and you’re going for the first time, like I don’t see why you wouldn’t do that. Like, I don’t, I’m not trying to convince anyone with boo boo dev that they should be.

[00:43:23] Lane Wagner: They, they should be turning down their college acceptance letters and, and doing this like, year long thing online. We’re definitely speaking more to kind of your 25 to 30 5-year-old age group where they’re working full time and they’re trying to figure out how they can get into tech in some way, specifically like backend development without going into that.

[00:43:46] Lane Wagner: And so that’s why I put bootcamps in a different class of thing. And, and I’m gonna be most critical about bootcamps here. So I named boot dev. Boot dev when we. Rebranded partly tongue in cheek because boot devs not a bootcamp. [00:44:00] Basically, my, my critique is that bootcamps, like had I gone to a bootcamp as an adult, it would’ve been more expensive than college was for me.

[00:44:06] Lane Wagner: Again, because I went to a community college and ‘cause I had this scholarship, bootcamps tend to run in like the 10 to 15 grand range depending on, on where you go and which I don’t think is unfair. Like you’re getting time with an instructor in person, like you have to pay for that, that labor cost. But it is expensive.

[00:44:23] Lane Wagner: But the unfortunate thing is they’re only three to six to nine months long and you don’t get credentialed at the end with a degree. Which I would argue is like the biggest downside of something like boot dev is that, you know, it’s at the end of the day you get certificates saying that you did a thing, but it’s not what some

[00:44:41] Chuck Carpenter: in any way.

[00:44:43] Lane Wagner: want.

[00:44:43] Lane Wagner: Which

[00:44:44] Chuck Carpenter: We need to start a union and we need to start an association and get people accredited through you as software developers or whatever else. Right? Yeah. No.

[00:44:59] Robbie Wagner: I’ll write the [00:45:00] Enbridge JS course and we’ll, we’ll get it going.

[00:45:02] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah. Go for it. Bring people back. We’ll see. We’ll see how much that one, uh, goes for. I mean, hey, one point about, to me it always felt like that boot camps, part of their deal was you were paying for the, the guaranteed job at the end.

[00:45:17] Chuck Carpenter: Like they would make these guarantees, like 90% of our, uh, we get placed and all of that, and they have in-house, like recruiting agencies and everything else. I think that’s changed quite a bit, uh, lately over the last couple of years because it’s no longer like, yeah, we need to pump them out because there’s so much demand now.

[00:45:35] Chuck Carpenter: It’s kind of the inverse. There’s like deep pools of plenty of skilled people and you need to be able to do some pretty, pretty weird, crazy shit to get jobs these days sometimes. So kind of get that. I, but I do think that like, that was part of what they were selling is like, yes, you can go learn online, you can buy a Udemy course or you know, whatever, you know, few.

[00:45:56] Chuck Carpenter: Pluralsight or whatever you want, you can go through that, [00:46:00] but at the end of the day, you’re kind of still on your own. Like, yeah, they might help you put a resume together. That’s kind of like the extent of it. If you pay us $15,000 in six months, we’ll have you a job that pays way more than what you’re doing now.

[00:46:13] Chuck Carpenter: And I think that was

[00:46:14] Robbie Wagner: that’s compelling. Like

[00:46:16] Chuck Carpenter: is. It

[00:46:16] Robbie Wagner: if someone has those connections and can guarantee that, go to

[00:46:19] Robbie Wagner: that bootcamp. I don’t think anyone has that anymore, but that was a thing, I don’t know, five years ago or

[00:46:25] Robbie Wagner: a while back. Like I remember that

[00:46:27] Lane Wagner: School. Bloom tech thing was like, we don’t charge you until you get a job.

[00:46:31] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, yeah. There was like a couple of those that did that, but

[00:46:35] Lane Wagner: the way they subsidized that is, the actual cost of that one specifically was like closer to 40 or $50,000 if you get a job,

[00:46:44] Chuck Carpenter: Oh, I remember that one. Yeah. Yeah,

[00:46:47] Lane Wagner: That’s, that’s okay. I guess if you really want that security, but man, when you’re only making 80 KA year, paying 50 K back over a couple years

[00:46:56] Chuck Carpenter: I was gonna say it was a whole thing where it was essentially a loan that got forwarded [00:47:00] out that, uh, you would pay like a lot of interest on. So, but my original question was still, we’re not talking about Noobs, we’re talking about it’s been 10 years, it’s been 15 years. I’m always trying to learn something new or something

[00:47:15] Robbie Wagner: wouldn’t you be a noob in that new thing though?

[00:47:18] Chuck Carpenter: I guess.

[00:47:19] Chuck Carpenter: So I guess it’s like, and I guess you can like enroll and skip past some stuff or whatever. I don’t know. But yeah, I suppose there’s that, but I always like feel like many of them, and I’ll let you know Lane now, that like they only take you so far. Right? Like, and so, okay. Yeah. I want the advanced content to a bit, I think, I feel like there’s so many like things that I can skip through because syntax can be picked up.

[00:47:46] Chuck Carpenter: You know, pretty easily through doing similar things in a different paradigm or whatever else. So I think that’s a thing that I always kind of miss. Like I don’t, you know, I did the Rails getting started thing recently just ‘cause I was like, oh yeah, this is a thing I never did. I [00:48:00] was at a Jengo and some other stuff and obviously tons of front end or whatever.

[00:48:04] Chuck Carpenter: I never spun up a Rails app, what’s that like? So I did their getting started and it’s cool, but it also felt a lot like, ‘cause I did Ember too back in the day with Robbie and I was like, oh yeah, I can see where Ember was based on this, because it’s like a lot of the same shit. So I kind of know, oh, this is really quick.

[00:48:21] Lane Wagner: Sorry. Uh, what’s this, what’s the question so I can make sure I, I actually address the question this time.

[00:48:26] Chuck Carpenter: Okay. What do you think is being done to help experienced developers become better and have better tooling in these areas of like learning? I’ve been doing this a while, but I wanna level up and yes, experience is one great way to do that, but my day job doesn’t always put me in that position and I don’t wanna change jobs to get that opportunity.

[00:48:45] Chuck Carpenter: So I’m looking to learn something now, what

[00:48:48] Lane Wagner: It is a big question, and so this is gonna sound like I’m slightly dodging the question. I’m not. It’s just like there’s a lot of stuff to say.

[00:48:54] Chuck Carpenter: the answer could be, I don’t know. It’s just something that came to mind. Well, actually I saw a posting [00:49:00] about that and then, and then was like, this is a good time to ask this question. That’s all I felt.

[00:49:06] Lane Wagner: If you’re an experienced developer with 10 years of experience, the reality is I think you’re going to have a fairly easy time jumping into almost anything if the hurdle is mostly syntax. And if you’re having a hard time, I don’t know what to tell you other than I probably don’t wanna hire you. Uh,

[00:49:27] Chuck Carpenter: You don’t want to hire me. I’m gonna let you know. Don’t worry about that. You don’t want to hire me. I, unless you have an elliptical or something, or I don’t

[00:49:34] Lane Wagner: So it’s like

[00:49:34] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. If you need an elliptical assembled, Chuck’s got, yeah.

[00:49:38] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, I could do that. I’m a carpenter.

[00:49:40] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:49:40] Chuck Carpenter: We can build things. I’ve got tools. So

[00:49:43] Lane Wagner: So the way I like to think about it is there’s a lot of concepts in programming that are solved with different technologies, and this is something that’s been tough building Bud Dev, is that I’m really hard-nosed about. I want to [00:50:00] have courses that teach concepts. We happen to teach them with specific technologies, right?

[00:50:06] Lane Wagner: So for example, we have an object oriented programming course, it’s in Python now. I’d love to have it in basically every language because the conceptual progression of the course is not about teaching syntax. And this is something that’s really hard, I think, for a lot of people getting into programming, uh, for the first time.

[00:50:23] Lane Wagner: Because the assumption is, oh, you learned Python and now you’re a Python programmer and you can do all the Python things. And if you want to be a go programmer, now you learn, go check that off the box. I like to think about it completely inverted, which is you should learn the concepts. Things like OOP, fp, data structures, algorithms, you know, web servers, command line tools, like you should learn these things from a conceptual level and it’s actually not very hard to change the syntax that you use to do those things, which is.

[00:50:53] Lane Wagner: The, one of the bigger struggles of building boot dev is that we have to like educate on that because most bootcamps and a lot [00:51:00] of online resources kind of cater to the other way of thinking, which is like, no, you learn, react, and then like you’re a React Dev.

[00:51:06] Chuck Carpenter: And I hate

[00:51:07] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, and you never learn JavaScript. Just react.

[00:51:10] Chuck Carpenter: exactly, I, I, I mean, it’s fine if you’d like react. I have no problem with that. If you, whatever your favorite sports team is, whatever, but it does feel like almost religious in a way of how you align yourself. With a technology, and I think that’s like the fallacy behind it.

[00:51:25] Chuck Carpenter: I actually think you answered my question by saying, well, we invert the concept and abstract away from what is the syntax in the language and how you accomplish it in this and want to teach someone the concept and then say, you can apply this same concept now to this next thing once you understand the syntactical, you know, variances there, and then just keep going.

[00:51:47] Chuck Carpenter: I actually think you answered that question for me as soon as you hit that note and I was like, yes, that feels right. So.

[00:51:52] Lane Wagner: Good. Good, because that’s, that’s where I was eventually going to circle back to. It’s finally coming to fruition on boot dev because we’ve [00:52:00] always had like this backend developer track that’s like 23 courses that again, are broken down kind of by the conceptual learnings at each, at each step. But the first half was always like CS fundamentals.

[00:52:11] Lane Wagner: And the second half was like a focus on backend development and it’s always been Python for the first half, go for the second half. And now we’re finally getting to this point where we’re expanding the backend part from just go to TypeScript and holy shit. It’s really easy. And this is gonna scare a lot of people.

[00:52:26] Lane Wagner: It’s really easy to do with ai. Like when we write our go courses to teach all these concepts and then we feed the LLM the whole fucking thing in Go and we say, gimme the equivalent lesson in TypeScript. Guess what? It can do really well. Like it can give you the TypeScript.

[00:52:43] Chuck Carpenter: Is it open AI or anthropic? Which one’s better?

[00:52:46] Lane Wagner: We’ve been testing both extensively so far. Open AI to the dismay of many developers is winning that

[00:52:54] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, that’s a bummer. Claude is just so more like polite and visually appealing to me, [00:53:00] and I just, I find myself drawn to it, so

[00:53:02] Lane Wagner: There’s a lot of, like, I think there’s a lot of, uh, ill will that OpenAI garnered over the course of a year that like Andro came in. They’re kinda the underdog and, but like, I guess my point is that doesn’t mean those things aren’t worth learning. They definitely are. And by the way, it’s like wrong all the time.

[00:53:16] Lane Wagner: This is not an automated process. We are, it’s maybe sped us up by like 20%,

[00:53:21] Robbie Wagner: But it tells you it’s right. It’s like this

[00:53:23] Robbie Wagner: is what you want.

[00:53:24] Chuck Carpenter: And as soon as you correct it, it’s like, oh yeah, you’re right. Sorry about that.

[00:53:27] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:53:28] Chuck Carpenter: Hopefully you knew to correct me.

[00:53:30] Lane Wagner: yeah, we’re using it as much as we possibly can, but I haven’t been able to fire anyone over it yet, so I don’t know. But yeah, that’s, that’s the vision is like you, you should be able to learn these fundamental concepts and then it’s not really a problem. You can take a quick course on the Go program, which like we do have those courses that just like gets you up to speed on the syntax.

[00:53:50] Lane Wagner: They’re quick. If you’re a senior developer, our go course takes like maybe a week, takes like a few hours, right? And then you feel pretty comfortable. You build a few things and like you’re off to the races. So I [00:54:00] wish more programmers in our industry, this is a kind of like, I guess to really zoom out kind of one of the missions of boot dev is like, I just wish more of us.

[00:54:09] Lane Wagner: We’re just fucking good at our jobs. Like I wish more of us could just look at a problem and be like, man, this should be solved in the front end or the back end, or in the database with a specific technology, with specific piece of infrastructure. And we’re not scared to go there because we’ve put ourselves in these little boxes of I’m a React developer, or I’m a view developer.

[00:54:30] Lane Wagner: It’s like, no, you’re a developer

[00:54:32] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

[00:54:33] Lane Wagner: if there’s a tool that works, you can figure it out in just a couple days. That that’s

[00:54:38] Robbie Wagner: Well, I think it’s,

[00:54:39] Lane Wagner: more people get that way.

[00:54:40] Chuck Carpenter: We’ve taught

[00:54:40] Robbie Wagner: think it’s not their fault. It’s like.

[00:54:42] Chuck Carpenter: It’s not

[00:54:43] Robbie Wagner: Elle’s fault or someone’s fault, like for everything needs to be server side and like,

[00:54:50] Robbie Wagner: you’re gonna do your Postgres queries right in your React code and like all this shit. And like, no,

[00:54:57] Robbie Wagner: learn how to do like separation of concerns and what [00:55:00] goes where. And then if you want to muddy the waters, that’s fine, but like, don’t do that first.

[00:55:06] Chuck Carpenter: Did either of you, uh, listen to the Tomorrow FM with d hh on it from the other

[00:55:11] Robbie Wagner: Ooh, I, I have not,

[00:55:13] Chuck Carpenter: right. Like, I think he made such a great point there, and he has been a large influencer of my wallet lately, unfortunately. But kids these days don’t know how to set up a web server and expose it to the internet, literally like this very basic thing, which felt like such power.

[00:55:32] Chuck Carpenter: When I was able to do that for the first time, like, you know, I started out like using Photoshop and then like hacking together, like gaming machines and shit and like whatever. And just being able to do that. I never worried about like exposing myself to something. ‘cause I’m like, nobody cares about my little server on the internet.

[00:55:50] Chuck Carpenter: But like so many people probably make six figures doing a job. And not to say their job is invaluable by any means, you know, like you’re delivering value to [00:56:00] your users and all of that stuff. But understanding the fundamentals of your tools I think is important in growing. And I’ve been a manager and engineering leadership.

[00:56:10] Chuck Carpenter: Software leadership for a very long time as well. And you know, question you get all the time is like, how do I go to the next level or how do I become senior? And it’s like, well it’s very complicated. It’s not that like you learn these three concepts or you ship 16 things this quarter or whatever else.

[00:56:28] Chuck Carpenter: It like, it takes experience. It takes me seeing that you know how to find some answers and you know, like how things work and that’s why you’re able to kind of get there. And it’s hard to quantify that though, to a degree. And it’s a very interesting place that we’re in that like so many folks, so many grown adults who utilize this like don’t know the fundamentals of their tools

[00:56:49] Lane Wagner: To a degree. I think it’s that the buck can stop with you, like your team can come to you and it doesn’t mean you need to be able to, you know, figure out how to get to Mars, but like, if [00:57:00] this is a solved problem that the world knows how to do, you know how to do it, or at least you know how to figure it out.

[00:57:05] Lane Wagner: That’s like to me, what a senior engineer is like is, okay, if I look at the internet and I can see that 40% of websites do X, can you at least figure out how to do it in a week? Whereas, you know, a junior engineer might not be able to do that. They might need to be able to go to that senior person and get that, that direction.

[00:57:23] Lane Wagner: I think becoming senior is this, it’s, it’s experience. It is an understanding of a lot of fundamental concepts. It’s, it’s a mixture of things, but it’s like, can you just do the thing that other people. Have figured out how to do already, right? And you can look up and implement. And that’s kind of where, how I look at it.

[00:57:42] Chuck Carpenter: It’s still a hard thing to put into like HR documentation, but I think like you’re, you’re spot on in general, like kind of what it means. Yeah. Like you can find the answers. You understand enough to help figure that out.

[00:57:55] Robbie Wagner: it sneaks up on you. I remember like when I first thought I was a [00:58:00] senior engineer of like, wait, I can just do this stuff. I don’t need to go ask anyone. Like, but it, until then, your workflow was so very regimented of like, try to do a thing, fail at it, go ask my senior like how to do it, and then like, just to kind of overnight you’re just like, wait, I don’t need to do that anymore. There’s no like, yeah, there’s no checklist. It’s just like. You just figure it out.

[00:58:21] Chuck Carpenter: That’s it. That’s your career ladder. Figure it out.

[00:58:24] Robbie Wagner: And that’s how promotions work too. Unfortunately. There’s

[00:58:27] Robbie Wagner: no checklist. It’s, yeah. Do we all think you’re at that or not? Yeah. I don’t know.

[00:58:31] Robbie Wagner: Like,

[00:58:32] Lane Wagner: And do we like you? That’s

[00:58:34] Robbie Wagner: that’s,

[00:58:35] Lane Wagner: very underrated,

[00:58:36] Robbie Wagner: is usually no. So,

[00:58:37] Chuck Carpenter: I think it’s better though than the old school of like, do we feel threatened? If you left, I guess you’re senior now,

[00:58:45] Robbie Wagner: well that was, that was a complex time of like,

[00:58:47] Chuck Carpenter: neck

[00:58:48] Robbie Wagner: is making really shitty code. That was not senior code, but like, oh my God, I don’t know what this does.

[00:58:53] Robbie Wagner: So you’ve gotta stay here.

[00:58:54] Chuck Carpenter: I can remember like having people where it was like, oh, if Joey doesn’t stay, we can’t deploy. I don’t know [00:59:00] what to, you know what I mean? Like, this is,

[00:59:02] Robbie Wagner: man,

[00:59:02] Chuck Carpenter: is a

[00:59:02] Robbie Wagner: made.

[00:59:04] Chuck Carpenter: of what’s going on. And

[00:59:05] Lane Wagner: wrote 5,000 lines of Bash and now we don’t know

[00:59:08] Chuck Carpenter: And we’re like, nobody knows how to do that shit and it’s all OnPrem and whatever else.

[00:59:13] Chuck Carpenter: And this definitely wasn’t within the last 15 years, so, so I, I have an interesting question. Are you a big fan of Bam Marra or like CKY or Jackass was later in his career or whatever else? Yeah.

[00:59:27] Lane Wagner: Oh, ba marger. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I know what you’re talking about at least

[00:59:30] Chuck Carpenter: You got like the bam Margera beard and I can’t get it outta my head. It was like, this is a choice this person made. And I, they must have seen it somewhere and was like, this is what I want to do to my face. And that guy lived in Pennsylvania and drove a Lambo, like, seems good.

[00:59:47] Robbie Wagner: He did have a Lambo. Yeah.

[00:59:49] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, he, he’s a

[00:59:51] Robbie Wagner: He must have been a PHP developer.

[00:59:53] Chuck Carpenter: He would’ve been if he was a developer. Like he’s, he’s a former professional skater and obviously [01:00:00] CKY was the, what the videos were before he became part of Jackass. So you are a productive individual before 30, making humans and companies and all this stuff. I was like, well, I guess my career started in that time, but my early twenties were very hazy and full of lots of like indecision and indirection in my

[01:00:20] Robbie Wagner: Had you ever heard of Combinatorics in your twenties?

[01:00:25] Chuck Carpenter: no, you know, I, he likes to bring this up because this is like a thing where I finally like hit a computer science-y like problem in an app I was working on, uh, with a company I was helping build on a team. I was helping build and he’s just mad ‘cause I didn’t hire him initially for that. But anyway, we became friends and it worked out.

[01:00:43] Chuck Carpenter: But. Yeah. And yeah, it was like this thing where I was like, I need to take like three different open options and come up with every combination. And then it’s like Combinatorics and I, I’m writing an Ember app and I look up and he’s the maintainer of Ember [01:01:00] Combinatorics. So I was like, well this is, this is good.

[01:01:03] Chuck Carpenter: So you know about this. And yeah, got his help there. So I learned about Com combinatorics. I would’ve been in my early thirties, I guess then I’m 72. Did you know this?

[01:01:14] Lane Wagner: Jesus Christ, you look incredible.

[01:01:18] Chuck Carpenter: Oh, it’s all the

[01:01:19] Robbie Wagner: I mean he, he is really not lying by that much, honestly.

[01:01:25] Chuck Carpenter: like if you do the math on my age to 72, it’s less than I wish it was.

[01:01:31] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[01:01:33] Chuck Carpenter: I might just say that.

[01:01:36] Robbie Wagner: Oh God.

[01:01:37] Lane Wagner: Could you be my parent? Is that

[01:01:39] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[01:01:40] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, I was born in Kentucky, so yeah, I definitely could be your dad. So in that sense,

[01:01:46] Robbie Wagner: fun part

[01:01:46] Robbie Wagner: is

[01:01:47] Lane Wagner: could be my Mississippi parent. It’s

[01:01:50] Robbie Wagner: my wife’s parents are like two or three years older than Chuck, so yes.

[01:01:56] Lane Wagner: okay. Yeah,

[01:01:57] Chuck Carpenter: oh yeah, I forgot about that. That’s funny. [01:02:00] I knew his, uh, mother-in-law back in the day. You know what I’m saying? Anyway. No, that’s weird. And this is about the time when Robbie cuts me off.

[01:02:09] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. I mean, we have been over time for eight minutes, but uh, I was just letting it go.

[01:02:14] Lane Wagner: you guys don’t record long enough. There’s so much to say.

[01:02:16] Robbie Wagner: Oh, I know, I

[01:02:17] Chuck Carpenter: that’s how we keep him coming back though. You know, like we can’t squeeze around. We can you imagine if we did a two hour format, how hammered we would be like, this is

[01:02:26] Robbie Wagner: Well, we did two hours with

[01:02:27] Robbie Wagner: Prime that one time.

[01:02:29] Lane Wagner: And then we, we do a se an episode. An

[01:02:31] Chuck Carpenter: uh, no send, can you send it back to me? That’d be fine. Like just wrap it up in

[01:02:35] Robbie Wagner: Chuck can drink it and then we’ll send you some more.

[01:02:37] Chuck Carpenter: I was gonna say like, look where I’m at. Uh, yeah. We could do another, we could do a little like live happy hour and just talk and bullshit. We don’t even have to record. That might be a fun thing.

[01:02:48] Chuck Carpenter: We’ve been talking about doing that for a little while, like doing additional content. So maybe we just do like a live

[01:02:52] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I don’t know how the internet works or streaming and whatever kids do these days,

[01:02:57] Chuck Carpenter: I guess you need to, you need [01:03:00] that p dev code. Yeah. And then you can figure out, does it teach you how to write a DNS server and averse proxy Gen X?

[01:03:09] Lane Wagner: you heard of caddy?

[01:03:10] Chuck Carpenter: I haven’t, no. Is that a, a

[01:03:12] Robbie Wagner: that’s when you’re golfing,

[01:03:13] Chuck Carpenter: easier?

[01:03:14] Lane Wagner: That is when you’re golfing, um, it’s, it’s basically an NX alternative. I mean, that’s probably not quite fair to say. There’s, there’s a bunch of differences, but Caddy is written in Go. I actually know the maintainer. His name’s Matt Holt. He’s awesome. But it’s fantastic. It’s awesome. So we have a course called Learn Web Servers where you learn to build a web server.

[01:03:33] Chuck Carpenter: I’m jumping on that. ‘cause I have a home lab that is very not well maintained.

[01:03:40] Lane Wagner: Well, fair enough. Like I mentioned before, we’re trying to be concepts first, so it’s like, okay, build a rest. API rest Carson Gross is like, you know, rolling over in his knot grave ‘cause he’s not dead, but,

[01:03:52] Chuck Carpenter: he’s old, but geez.

[01:03:55] Lane Wagner: Yeah, so it’s build A-J-S-O-A-P-I. But like, you know, just with the standard [01:04:00] library writing, actual sql, that kind of stuff.

[01:04:03] Lane Wagner: So like very fundamentals. First the caddy server comes a little later when we teach about docker ‘cause you need a, a proxy. And so we show you kinda how to spin up like a caddy server in Docker. But basically my philosophy is every time we like teach a new concept, we try to do it like really bare bones.

[01:04:18] Lane Wagner: Like when you just learn sql, you just learn sql, right? And then you learn web servers and then you use sql. And try to go a level deeper than I think what not to shit on like all the other courses. ‘cause I think there’s a lot of awesome courses out there. There really are. I don’t, I don’t mean that facetiously, but to try to go just a little bit deeper on everything so that when you actually do finish, you feel a lot more confident.

[01:04:38] Lane Wagner: ‘cause I think that’s been

[01:04:39] Chuck Carpenter: And sleepy in my, in my experience, I, I usually feel a little sleepy after I finish.

[01:04:45] Robbie Wagner: Oh God.

[01:04:46] Robbie Wagner: Oh, I thought you were talking about Sleepy and courses, but now then I know what you’re saying. So

[01:04:51] Lane Wagner: Yeah, it’s, that’s a whole different, whole different euphemism. But yeah, it’s, it a little bit more time to get to your destination, which is like supposedly [01:05:00] to become a, a developer, to become a better developer. And when you get there, actually be confident that you understand what’s going on rather than kind of what I’ve seen a lot over the last eight years, which is like, you kind of get to the, the end and you start searching for a job and you’re like, holy shit, I don’t know.

[01:05:15] Lane Wagner: I don’t know a fuck about shit and that’s not fun. So that’s kind of what we’re, we’re trying to address.

[01:05:22] Chuck Carpenter: No, it’s good. I think that’s like a good end goal that you’re shooting for of like, oh, I’ve seen and or heard these experiences and at this point not sure what’s actually applicable. I wonder how much of that too would help someone pivoting into like cybersecurity or other things. ‘cause I think understanding programming and how the hardware all works as, as far as the internet would like be great leverage to some of those other directions as well.

[01:05:49] Chuck Carpenter: I don’t know if you have points there. I know we’re way over Robbie, so we don’t have to dig way into that, but

[01:05:55] Robbie Wagner: The way the hardware works is you plug the cords together and

[01:05:58] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, if you unplug [01:06:00] them, they

[01:06:00] Lane Wagner: And then you SSH into the cloud. And then, I don’t know why you care about chords.

[01:06:03] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. It’s someone else’s electric. Isn’t that

[01:06:05] Robbie Wagner: password is

[01:06:06] Robbie Wagner: the default, so you just go wherever you want.

[01:06:08] Chuck Carpenter: Well, what does Guillermo recommend? What, what button in versel do I pick for that

[01:06:13] Lane Wagner: yeah. I forgot. We don’t, SSH here we, uh, navigate in the browser and log in with Google.

[01:06:18] Chuck Carpenter: Oh, you only SSH when you wanna buy coffee is what I understand. Which is funny because that was another thing when, uh, DHH was talking about two e and like how airlines still use the two E and all that kinda stuff. And in another life I worked for an airline and eventually worked at like the ticketing counter and stuff and used those things which were fucking bat shit insane.

[01:06:42] Chuck Carpenter: Like all of the key combinations to do things. Like there was no mouse. It was like a fucking computer from 1982 with

[01:06:48] Lane Wagner: it was an asinine like amount of key combinations that you just memorized and you’re making like barely more than minimum wage. And they’ve got this, like, they don’t even give you a cheat sheet. You just like talk to the teller next to you and they’re like, yeah, [01:07:00] this system was built in 1991.

[01:07:02] Lane Wagner: Hope you know how to navigate it.

[01:07:04] Chuck Carpenter: Robbie was one and you weren’t born

[01:07:06] Robbie Wagner: wasn’t born.

[01:07:06] Chuck Carpenter: fuck? I was gonna say. Yeah, that stuff is insane. At least I got free flights. I don’t know what the hell you got out of it, but.

[01:07:14] Robbie Wagner: Well.

[01:07:15] Chuck Carpenter: You didn’t get free banks free money. No.

[01:07:19] Robbie Wagner: something

[01:07:20] Lane Wagner: for my undergraduate from a small community college. Seventh Best in Utah. Shout out.

[01:07:25] Robbie Wagner: That’s not nothing.

[01:07:26] Chuck Carpenter: Hashtag not BYU?

[01:07:29] Robbie Wagner: So, so before we end here, uh, if you were not in tech, what career would you choose? And this could be like if you wanna magically gain a skill to do a thing. Just like what sounds fun? Like what’s your dream thing

[01:07:41] Robbie Wagner: outside of tech?

[01:07:43] Lane Wagner: I think I’d like to be an author. I probably wouldn’t, uh, wouldn’t make it

[01:07:47] Chuck Carpenter: No, no, no. You get to make it, you get to pick the

[01:07:49] Lane Wagner: I get to make it

[01:07:50] Chuck Carpenter: what career you? Yeah, it was like

[01:07:53] Robbie Wagner: Well, what kind of author? Children’s books, those are easy. Like.

[01:07:56] Lane Wagner: No. Hi.

[01:07:57] Chuck Carpenter: Jimmy Fallon wrote one of those.

[01:07:59] Lane Wagner: [01:08:00] look if I ever truly make it in programming, which I, I’m a fairly ambitious person, which means like, if, you know, if I could get to the point somewhere. In the next, I don’t know, decade or something where like I wouldn’t have to work anymore. Unlikely that that happens. But if it did, I think my goal would be to write some high fantasy that is like paradigm shifting in a way, which is like a really egotistical and prideful thing to say.

[01:08:27] Lane Wagner: But I think, like I’m a huge fan of Tolkien, love the legendary, there’s a bunch of stuff there. Can’t believe he died before, you know, really giving us some more answers. But there should be a new way to write fiction, or I should say there, I would like there to be a new genre in which people could write fiction because we’ve been kind of stuck with our, you know, existing genres.

[01:08:50] Lane Wagner: And Tolkien really created fantasy in the way that it exists now. And nobody’s been able to do that. I’m not saying that I could do that, but if you’re giving me the talent, if you’re giving me the skill, [01:09:00] that’s what I’d like to do.

[01:09:01] Robbie Wagner: a whole new universe. Yeah.

[01:09:02] Chuck Carpenter: Interesting. Yeah.

[01:09:04] Robbie Wagner: So do you like rings with power?

[01:09:06] Lane Wagner: No, no,

[01:09:07] Robbie Wagner: Okay. I figured that might be the answer.

[01:09:09] Chuck Carpenter: Too passionate. He’s not gonna love it. Like, no way.

[01:09:11] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[01:09:12] Lane Wagner: I watched it and I’ve, I’ve been watching the new season as well. Somehow the new season has been worse than the old one, which is incredible. I didn’t think

[01:09:21] Robbie Wagner: started the new season.

[01:09:22] Chuck Carpenter: Oh.

[01:09:23] Lane Wagner: I, I, legitimately went into season two thinking it’s gonna be better than season one.

[01:09:27] Robbie Wagner: Well, didn’t they get a whole new like, producer, director, like everybody, or am I wrong on that? I, I thought I’d heard they got like, all knew everybody, but maybe not.

[01:09:36] Lane Wagner: I haven’t paid enough attention. It’s very, it’s very possible. I think there’s a couple twists that I’m looking at that I’m, I’m hoping pan out ‘cause I think that’d be kind of cool. I’m not convinced that they will, but it’s been an embarrassing way to spend that amount of money.

[01:09:51] Robbie Wagner: I don’t think you’re wrong because like. I’m not a purist. I’m, I like Tolkien, but I’m not, like, it has to be exactly that way. So I’m like, whatever. But [01:10:00] also, I wasn’t, like, when I finish an episode, I’m not, not like, oh my God, I gotta watch the next one. You know? So

[01:10:05] Robbie Wagner: it’s not like a great show, but it’s not a bad show.

[01:10:07] Robbie Wagner: It’s just like, it’s mediocre and it’s just like,

[01:10:11] Robbie Wagner: yeah, for that much money it should be phenomenal. Like Apple TV spends so much money on all their shows and all of them are good. Maybe, maybe they know what they’re doing.

[01:10:19] Lane Wagner: if Netflix had gotten the rights, I believe it would be, you know, 50 to 75% better than what it is. I don’t know why Amazon’s so bad at these things. I,

[01:10:28] Robbie Wagner: I don’t either.

[01:10:30] Lane Wagner: yeah, I know the fundamental problem. All right. Gonna get Tolkien nerdy for a second. I know we’re like a billion minutes over, but I, I mean, I don’t, I’m unemployed, so,

[01:10:40] Robbie Wagner: I mean,

[01:10:41] Robbie Wagner: I, I’ll hard

[01:10:42] Chuck Carpenter: well, uh, that makes two of us,

[01:10:44] Robbie Wagner: that you can go do whatever you want.

[01:10:46] Lane Wagner: The source material they’re working with, theoretically they don’t like, I actually don’t understand the licensing, but supposedly they don’t even have the license to like everything. They need to do what they want, which is already a problem.

[01:10:55] Chuck Carpenter: hmm.

[01:10:56] Lane Wagner: you should have like waited until you had everything or like [01:11:00] maybe spent less money on ridiculous settings and costumes and gotten that source material.

[01:11:04] Lane Wagner: But whatever, they’re missing some licensing that said even if they had everything, which they don’t, you’re working with a timeline that’s huge and trying to tell a story over the course of like a realistic amount of time, like six months or something in like, you know, the world of the show. And so they’re forced to kind of condense all of these events that supposedly happened over like a millennia into a very short amount of time.

[01:11:29] Lane Wagner: And so that, you know, just the result of that is making up a bunch of stuff, you know, lots of plot devices. And the sad thing is that we knew that was gonna happen. That’s like just a disappointment, but like, you know, it’s gonna happen. And then somehow they fucked up everything on top of that, which is just, that’s the one, that’s the one that like really hurts.

[01:11:50] Lane Wagner: It’s like there’s a bunch of unforced errors on top of that that I just wish

[01:11:53] Chuck Carpenter: It’s like Star Wars lore.

[01:11:55] Robbie Wagner: or worse than the last season of Game of Thrones?

[01:11:59] Lane Wagner: Oh, [01:12:00] the thing. I’m not invested in Game of Thrones to

[01:12:07] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. See that’s the

[01:12:08] Lane Wagner: I’m invested in Tolkien’s. Legendary.

[01:12:09] Robbie Wagner: it didn’t hurt as

[01:12:10] Chuck Carpenter: I think that’s the, I think that’s the net they’re all casting is that the super fans will never be happy. Doesn’t matter what we do. So let’s just kind of cast that

[01:12:18] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. They don’t care about

[01:12:20] Chuck Carpenter: that it’s just not gonna matter. We can’t do good enough. And so let’s see what we can do to draw casual fans or new people into this with like, you know,

[01:12:31] Lane Wagner: I only watched Game of Thrones. I didn’t read it. And so the fact that it’s still is like bad

[01:12:37] Chuck Carpenter: Robbie can’t read, so I know he didn’t read it and he still didn’t

[01:12:40] Robbie Wagner: I haven’t read since high school and

[01:12:41] Robbie Wagner: I will not, I, I’ve read Go Dog Go recently and, uh,

[01:12:46] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. You’re gonna start reading a whole lot more. Yeah. That’s gonna keep going up until uh, yeah. I

[01:12:53] Robbie Wagner: just gonna, I’m gonna get a nice illustrated Hobbit and read that. It’s

[01:12:58] Robbie Wagner: gonna be like first

[01:12:59] Chuck Carpenter: that’s a good [01:13:00] start. I could go into that. A graphic novel. Yeah. My, my son is eight, so I have two kids, five and eight. And my son is a very good voracious reader. Actually. He’s read the first three Harry Potters so far. He likes some comics and stuff too. That made me an introduction. So yeah, we’ve been reading for a while.

[01:13:19] Lane Wagner: I can’t wait till my daughter’s old enough to be able to like, sit through a reading session. She’s three and a half and I, I wanna read The Hobbit to her so bad, but she

[01:13:27] Chuck Carpenter: Oh

[01:13:27] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, Not

[01:13:28] Chuck Carpenter: she’s not ready for chapter books. We do like before bed reading and we have like raw doll chapter books mostly for my son, and then we gotta do something else for

[01:13:38] Lane Wagner: Role Doll is so good. All those, the Wes Anderson movies. Anyone listening? God, Wes Anderson. Just, I, I think he likes Role Doll a lot. It

[01:13:47] Chuck Carpenter: Oh yeah. Yeah. His universe is very interesting. His latest movie I haven’t seen yet. What’s it called?

[01:13:52] Chuck Carpenter: Like a something city? No, it’s something city. It’s like new.

[01:13:57] Lane Wagner: was on Netflix or

[01:13:58] Chuck Carpenter: think so. No, I [01:14:00] think it’s that. Yeah. And it’s like Nuclear City or some, something. I cannot recall what it is.

[01:14:06] Lane Wagner: to recall, but it’s really good. It’s a bunch of short stories and yeah, it’s incredible. Google, Wes Anderson new Netflix special. Yeah, it’s super good.

[01:14:15] Chuck Carpenter: Well, there we go. Uber geeked out. You ready to go eat Robbie or what? I,

[01:14:19] Robbie Wagner: Well, I was trying to look up the name of this thing, and even Google is failing me. It was like everything you need to know about Wes Anderson’s wonderful. Something. I don’t know. It doesn’t tell you the name. If someone finds

[01:14:30] Robbie Wagner: us in the next minute, let us know, but otherwise,

[01:14:33] Lane Wagner: of Henry Sugar. That’s the one I’m

[01:14:34] Chuck Carpenter: I’m thinking about something else then.

[01:14:36] Lane Wagner: Oh, okay. That one was good.

[01:14:38] Chuck Carpenter: Asteroid City is the one I’m thinking.

[01:14:41] Lane Wagner: Oh, okay. I’ve heard of that one. I haven’t seen it yet.

[01:14:43] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, we’ll see. There we go. We both, we have two things. Um,

[01:14:46] Lane Wagner: Mine was 2024. So I mean tech

[01:14:48] Chuck Carpenter: I’m really behind.

[01:14:49] Lane Wagner: right, about the newer thing.

[01:14:51] Chuck Carpenter: I mean, can we just agree to disagree? Isn’t that what we do these days?

[01:14:56] Lane Wagner: Oh yeah,

[01:14:56] Robbie Wagner: All right, so in our last couple minutes, what do you wanna [01:15:00] plug before we end?

[01:15:01] Lane Wagner: It’s simple. Boot dev. If you wanna learn backend development, Python and go bunch of other stuff that’s related to backend development, check it out.

[01:15:09] Chuck Carpenter: and it’s, uh, it’s actually all a long Ponzi scheme to convert you to the Mormon church. So I don’t know. Good luck with that.

[01:15:16] Lane Wagner: Thank you. I don’t pay tithing anymore, but you, uh, it, it would have 10% of the proceeds would have gone to the Mormon church

[01:15:25] Chuck Carpenter: but it doesn’t now currently. That was a joke, everyone.

[01:15:29] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. All

[01:15:30] Robbie Wagner: right.

[01:15:31] Robbie Wagner: Cool. Um,

[01:15:32] Chuck Carpenter: wait, wait. I got one more thing. I gotta do an outro. But we never do the outros anymore. It was earlier today. I was listening to a song and I was like, I’m the make it to make it, to make it make it a Mac Daddy. I’m the make it to make it a make, make it a Mac.

[01:15:45] Chuck Carpenter: I’m the make it to make it. Make it make it a Mac, daddy. I’m the make it to make it. Make it, make it a Mac. Yep.

[01:15:50] Robbie Wagner: Okay.

[01:15:52] Chuck Carpenter: It’s better.

[01:15:52] Robbie Wagner: Alright, we’re done.

[01:15:54] Outro: You’ve been watching Whiskey Web and Whatnot. Recorded in front of a live [01:16:00] studio audience. What the fuck are you talking about, Chuck? Enjoyed the show? Subscribe. You know, people don’t pay attention to these, right? Head to whiskey.fund for merchant to join our Discord server. I’m serious, it’s like 2% of people who actually click these links. And don’t forget to leave us a five star review and tell your friends about the show. All right, dude, I’m outta here. Still got it.