166: Front-end Adventures with Bad at CSS' David East and Adam Argyle

[00:00:00] Intro: Welcome to Syntax. Welcome to a brand new episode of the Front End Happy Hour podcast. Welcome to this week’s JS Party. Live from Ship Shape Studios, this is Whiskey Web and Whatnot. With your hosts, Robbie the Wagner, and me, Charles William Carpenter III. That’s right Charles. We drink whiskey and talk about web development.

[00:00:27] Intro: I mean, it’s all in the name. It’s not that deep. This is Whiskey Web and Whatnot. Do not adjust your set.

[00:00:36] Robbie Wagner: What’s up everybody? Welcome to Whiskey Web and Whatnot with your kind of host, RobbietheWagner, and usually Chuck, but not today. Yeah, he might be here later. He is having some technical difficulties, but Adam has helped us host before, so we’re, we’re set. So we do have two special guests today. We’ve got Adam Argyle and David East from the bad at CSS podcast.

[00:00:59] Robbie Wagner: [00:01:00] Yeah. Do you want to tell the folks at home a little bit about who you are and what you do?

[00:01:03] Adam Argyle: Yeah. David, go first.

[00:01:05] David East: I go first. You’re the one who always runs down the intro. Okay. I usually just go ride the wave from your intros, and so now I’m gonna be like, uh, so we have a podcast and, um, uh, there’s CSS in it, uh, and it’s not good. It’s really my, yeah. Adam and I run a podcast called The Bad at CSS podcast because we deeply believe in our hearts, minds, and souls that.

[00:01:31] David East: We’re all really bad at CSS though with Adam, he’s always like, oh, I’m so bad. And then you look at his code and you’re like, okay, thanks. Thanks for that. I’m gonna go,

[00:01:40] Adam Argyle: Go look at my site. You’d be like, this is a mess. He didn’t use Tailwind.

[00:01:47] David East: But yeah. So yeah, Adam and I have been running the bad at CS podcast almost, almost a year now. I don’t really know. Uh, I don’t know. It’s been, it’s been good. Adam, you, you do the, I I don’t do the intro thing. Adam, you do

[00:01:58] Adam Argyle: Sorry. Oh [00:02:00] man. David rules lots of intelligence and he’s just a very, uh, multi-talented individual. Like you gotta check out all the work he’s done on Firebase. He’s written multiple libraries. He’s a fantastically. He does design and he does dev and he doesn’t just do dev or design. He’s like really deep on all these things.

[00:02:16] Adam Argyle: Probably a little deeper than me on multiple pillars, which is kind of fun ‘cause I feel like I’m kind of multi-headed. Dragon also. But you’re over there, you got like some deeper, bigger dragon heads on the end of your necks. This is getting weird. Oh,

[00:02:30] David East: That dragon at the end, he’s like, you know, there’s like the, the, the, the, the strong dragons, and then the one that’s like, oh, that’s, that’s how I feel at least.

[00:02:38] Adam Argyle: they’re always the hero of the story though. You’re gonna underestimate that dragon. You know, it’s gonna show up and it’s gonna have superpowers in the end that just like I had all the powers of all the dragons this whole time, I just looked stupid. Uh, hey Ray, my name is Adam. I’m, uh, on the Bad At Sea says podcast also, and we just, we sometimes it’s topical, sometimes we have guests.

[00:02:58] Adam Argyle: Ultimately it’s about like [00:03:00] empathizing with what we don’t know, embracing what we don’t know, and kind of, uh, the more we learn, the more we learn. We don’t know. And it’s like reveling in that fact. I also work on the Chrome team. David and I are both at Google, but just kind of weirdo, public outward devs, you know, like we’re devs that, uh, yeah, he’s on IDX now, which is a pretty slick little code editor.

[00:03:19] Adam Argyle: There’s a whole bunch of code editors in the cloud space right now. There’s like a battle royale happening.

[00:03:24] David East: You can get your season pack. I don’t know actually anything about battle royale. I don’t play, so, but I, that sounded smart and I was like, let me take that bag before I’m deeply out of my element here.

[00:03:34] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. So I do have an important question for you guys, and I don’t know if you’ve covered this on the podcast or if it’s intentional, but I. Did you intentionally choose bad at CSS? Because you can’t spell it without badass.

[00:03:47] David East: No, that was a total accident.

[00:03:50] Adam Argyle: but it was a benefit. I, I can’t lie, like I, I told it to my wife who’s very good at catching all of all of the things I say, like grunt and gulp, and she’s like, that’s gross. Uh. [00:04:00] She’s just like really good. I, I’m just like too in the weeds and can’t notice it. So I was like, yeah, we’re thinking about calling it the bat at CSS podcast.

[00:04:06] Adam Argyle: She goes, kind of sound like you said badass, which is kind of badass. And I was like, it is badass.

[00:04:12] David East: Yeah. I, I’m pretty sure the name was, came up with like, where it’s like, what? Oh, you have to film what’s, what’s it called? And you’re like, it’s, it’s the bad at CSS podcast. Yes. And you’re like, and now it’s like the band name where you’re stuck with it.

[00:04:29] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Nice. Yeah. So we are gonna get into. The CSS two where I, I, I would call it css, two truths and a Lie. We played two truths and a lie before where it’s like you say two true things about yourself and a lie, and you have to decide which one’s the lie. But right before we jump into that, I do wanna mention we have free tickets, do All Things Open, which is in Raleigh at the end of the month.

[00:04:53] Robbie Wagner: So gonna drop that link in the chat if anyone wants some tickets. Anyway, back to the show. [00:05:00] Yeah. So do you want to hit me with a, a couple of,

[00:05:02] Adam Argyle: You ready? What about whiskey? Shouldn’t we rate, shouldn’t we sip some W whiskey or something

[00:05:06] Robbie Wagner: You wanna do that first? Okay.

[00:05:08] Adam Argyle: mean we can reverse the order. Y’all usually do it in the beginning, you know, state your tent to please and give it a

[00:05:13] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Listen, Chuck does the whiskey. He’s not here. I don’t know how it works. Um, yeah, we’ve,

[00:05:18] Adam Argyle: watching right now. Just all sad.

[00:05:20] Robbie Wagner: we have the Achin Creek Ragnar Rock Rye Whiskey, which is a partnership with, uh, some band. It probably says on here.

[00:05:31] Adam Argyle: it seems like tenacious D

[00:05:32] Robbie Wagner: I don’t think so. Does everyone have the same top?

[00:05:37] David East: Yes,

[00:05:37] Adam Argyle: top is very cool. Yeah.

[00:05:40] David East: I’m like getting,

[00:05:42] Robbie Wagner: yeah. Yours is a little different, I think. Yeah. So we have horns and you have like some kind of

[00:05:47] Adam Argyle: a dragon. Yeah,

[00:05:49] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Yeah. They had a bunch of different tops, so, yeah. So,

[00:05:53] Adam Argyle: to Dec Cork Mine.

[00:05:56] Robbie Wagner: huh Uh

[00:05:56] Adam Argyle: the head. I don’t wanna break the head on it.

[00:05:59] Robbie Wagner: yeah. [00:06:00] So we’ve got, uh, this is 92 proof. It’s a hundred percent rye aged with white oak sugar, maple and cherry wood, and finished in rum casks and is certified kosher if you care about that and your whiskey.

[00:06:14] David East: Oh,

[00:06:15] Adam Argyle: I came prepared today with like a little bit of like purified water to drip in there, multiple glasses so that I can try different styles. I just poured it over some peach fresca in case I need a tasty sip.

[00:06:27] David East: he’s too risk.

[00:06:29] Robbie Wagner: Nice. All right. Yeah, so we, we just give it a, a sniffy sniff and a little bit of a, a sip, you know, whatever comes to mind is totally fine and correct. So let let us know what you think. Let’s see,

[00:06:42] Adam Argyle: do like

[00:06:42] Robbie Wagner: I smell strawberry fruit by the foot

[00:06:49] David East: I taste alcohol. Yep.

[00:06:51] Adam Argyle: Yeah, definitely some of that in there.

[00:06:53] David East: Yeah.

[00:06:53] Robbie Wagner: maybe some hibiscus,

[00:06:56] Adam Argyle: Ooh,

[00:06:58] David East: It smells a little like, uh, [00:07:00] whiskey.

[00:07:00] Robbie Wagner: bean burritos. No, I’m just kidding. No, no, not that one. No. Oh. All right.

[00:07:08] Adam Argyle: all your fun candy references. I’m like a mamba, you know? Should we just go through nineties candies to make us happy?

[00:07:15] Robbie Wagner: All right. Let’s see what it tastes like. Ooh. Does not taste like it. Smells a lot spicier.

[00:07:20] Adam Argyle: It is definitely on the spicy side of the flavor profile. I like the way that it’s like coating the, uh, outer sides of my tongue with the spice. It’s kinda fun.

[00:07:30] David East: I’m like, so I don’t know. I, I don’t know what I’m gonna say. I’m like, it, I’m like, it’s, it’s alcohol and um, it’s, I have a fancy glass.

[00:07:40] Adam Argyle: I’m, I’m ready for my review,

[00:07:41] Robbie Wagner: battle. Yeah, go thin.

[00:07:43] Adam Argyle: this stuff. Yeah. Uh, imagine a whiskey that’s aged in European oak casks that once held a rare sherry. The initial nose is a delicate ballet of citrus zest, particularly grapefruit and blood orange dancing with subtle hints [00:08:00] of Pete smoke on the palette. The flavors evolve into a complex tapestry.

[00:08:04] Adam Argyle: Notes of honeyed orchard, fruits like ripe pair and apricot, are intertwined with the gentle warmth of toasted oak and a touch of sea salt. The finish is lingering and elegant, leaving a final impression of dried figs and a subtle hint of clove spices. This is a whiskey that invites contemplation, a liquid poem of complexity and sophistication.

[00:08:27] Robbie Wagner: Nice. Did you come up with that on the spot?

[00:08:29] Adam Argyle: Uh, dude, just right off the dome right now. Yeah, just like a freestyle. Just totally not Joe and I, I mean, that was not, I mean, that was, that was me.

[00:08:38] Robbie Wagner: Nice.

[00:08:38] Adam Argyle: beat

[00:08:38] Robbie Wagner: very, very well put.

[00:08:40] Adam Argyle: I guess.

[00:08:45] David East: I smell, smell some dirt. Uh, no, I’m just kidding. Uh, I did, I did re like saw this guy did this like, uh, whiskey review once and he was like, yeah, it has some dirt in it. And I was like, because that’s bad. And he was like, and it’s good. [00:09:00] And I was like, the dirt is good. The, we like the dirt. Yeah. He’s like, it’s a nice dirty taste.

[00:09:06] David East: And I was like,

[00:09:08] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I’m not sure what you mean by that, but uh

[00:09:10] David East: it’s dirt, you know? But you know, this is, um, actually what I think I, I kind of wish I would’ve done ‘cause I have something, a stir upstairs. I wish I just like kinda live made an old fashioned with this and in my freezer. Yes. ‘cause you will all were wondering, I do have cubed rocks with Yes.

[00:09:31] David East: Tears of the kingdom. Logo on it from a box my daughter has, so Yes.

[00:09:37] Adam Argyle: was like dragon tears to use in your whiskey. That’s

[00:09:40] David East: Yeah, they, I’m pretty sure those ice cubes have been in there for six months. So like, I imagine the flavor that’s coming out of that old fashioned would be fantastic. But I, I actually, I, this, I would wanna drink an old fashioned with this one because it has a nice spice to it.

[00:09:58] David East: And I, I find that when you [00:10:00] have a kind of like very bourbon, sugary bourbon forward, old fashioned, it’s a little thick and uh, it’s a little too desserty for me, where it’s like almost it tastes like you’re drinking like a port, whereas this has that nice rye spice to it. And I would greatly enjoy this in an old fashioned, at least I, I think so, I think that you could get a nice balance with this.

[00:10:18] David East: So that’s, that’s kind of what I think is if you’re a person that if you go out, you know, and you order old fashioned and you say like, Hey, I want it with rye, I think this could work really well. ‘cause it, it does, the spice is definitely there.

[00:10:28] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. You’ll have to report back. You can make one, uh, later on and, and let us know.

[00:10:33] David East: With the, with the breath of the, sorry, the tears of the kingdom cubes there. That’s a requirement.

[00:10:39] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Uh, so we do have a very complex rating system on this podcast. It is zero to eight tentacles. Zero is the worst you’ve ever had. Like you don’t wanna drink anymore of it, throw it out. Eight is like, this is the best ever. Just get rid of everything else in, in the house. Only drink this. And a four is like middle of the road.

[00:10:58] Robbie Wagner: Just meh, I guess. Yeah.

[00:10:59] David East: [00:11:00] Oh,

[00:11:00] Robbie Wagner: we’ll have Chuck go first. Yep.

[00:11:03] Chuck Carpenter: Perfect. I was, I’m here. Do you hear yourselves?

[00:11:08] Adam Argyle: Oh yeah,

[00:11:09] Robbie Wagner: I don’t, I don’t think I hear

[00:11:11] David East: Yeah. You are boosted, man.

[00:11:13] Chuck Carpenter: Oh, I can, I can drop the boom.

[00:11:15] David East: I don’t know. I, I felt like you needed to,

[00:11:19] Adam Argyle: Presence was

[00:11:20] David East: me some,

[00:11:21] Chuck Carpenter: Yes. I’m back

[00:11:23] Robbie Wagner: this episode is sponsored by Road Firmware updates.

[00:11:27] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Which are very serious. Okay. What’s up now? Am I screaming? Am I

[00:11:33] Adam Argyle: here.

[00:11:33] Robbie Wagner: great.

[00:11:34] Chuck Carpenter: Okay. Exit lid. Uh, you already talked about the whiskey and tried it out.

[00:11:38] Robbie Wagner: we’d just drank it and I explained the rating system and you joined, so I was like, Hey, it’s Chuck turn to tell us

[00:11:43] Chuck Carpenter: I rate this a 10 out of eight because I just got here. I I rate the lid really high. You

[00:11:50] David East: yeah. The lid gets, gets

[00:11:52] Chuck Carpenter: is pretty sick. Okay.

[00:11:54] Adam Argyle: doom Vibes off the label hard, like he’s got like a chainsaw, uh, some sort of badass backpack. He’s going through [00:12:00] Winter covered lands into the depths of satins. Hell, that sounded weird, but anyway, it’s freezing. Cool.

[00:12:08] Chuck Carpenter: Excellent. Let’s see here. I’m gonna take a little gander. I do like the picture that’s a hundred percent rye. I have no idea on aging time. It’s finished, so that sounds cool.

[00:12:19] David East: Oh, so he is the whiskey guy.

[00:12:21] Chuck Carpenter: yeah. Uh, yeah. Yeah. I am the whiskey cow. I guess that’s called alcoholism. I know it was rum finished. It was.

[00:12:30] Chuck Carpenter: Aged in some other stuff. It’s from Virginia, so it’s probably

[00:12:34] Robbie Wagner: It says you have

[00:12:35] David East: Oh, oh,

[00:12:36] Robbie Wagner: in other tabs. Chuck, you need to close the

[00:12:40] Adam Argyle: Ooh, that might have been the echo on the OG scenario.

[00:12:43] Chuck Carpenter: Oh. It wasn’t, definitely wasn’t, we had this problem before. It’s, uh, when it’s like streamer mode versus gaming mode and whether it shares the audio from your computer or not. So that’s

[00:12:54] Robbie Wagner: is super annoying that there’s not a switch, a physical switch for that

[00:12:58] Chuck Carpenter: No. Super [00:13:00] cool. All right, so I’m gonna taste it. See what I think.

[00:13:03] Robbie Wagner: won’t

[00:13:05] Adam Argyle: I just put two drops. Uh. Water in mine to see what that does.

[00:13:08] Chuck Carpenter: Hmm. Interesting. So I’ve had a Kinin

[00:13:15] David East: Cat,

[00:13:15] Chuck Carpenter: Kain,

[00:13:15] David East: catto, catto.

[00:13:16] Chuck Carpenter: I’ve had this before and it was all right,

[00:13:19] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. We had their hot honey

[00:13:20] Chuck Carpenter: pat.

[00:13:21] Robbie Wagner: which was surprisingly tasted just like hot honey.

[00:13:23] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah. I’ve had a couple of their

[00:13:26] Adam Argyle: brought to you by Mike’s Hot Honey, that’s on my desk right now.

[00:13:29] Chuck Carpenter: Have you had the extra hot honey yet?

[00:13:32] Adam Argyle: no.

[00:13:33] Chuck Carpenter: There’s an extra hot also. Uh, it’s a little much for me. I like the regular hot honey on some pizza though. This is pretty easy. I think you put honey in my mind. I get a little bit of maple syrup on that. That’s probably from the rum though, influencing some sweetness there, some spice, some sweet

[00:13:50] Adam Argyle: When I put the droops of water in there, it really brought out the kind of candied, uh, scent and flavors. Yeah.

[00:13:56] Chuck Carpenter: candy pecans. Yeah, it really evokes [00:14:00] fall for me in the, in the flavors. So that’s kind of cool. Um,

[00:14:04] Adam Argyle: Yes. Pumpkin, spicy worthy

[00:14:07] Chuck Carpenter: but not obnoxious, not not weird and obnoxious. So I kind of dig that. I like it so far. I’m probably gonna give it somewhere around a six. That’s, that’s my safe and like above average. I don’t know. Five and a half. I’m gonna say for now. Five and a half is where I’m going with it.

[00:14:22] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, whoever wants to go next? I don’t know.

[00:14:25] Adam Argyle: Uh, I’m ready. I I, I’m gonna give it a six, which I, yeah, I was prepared to do. It’s yummy. I like the spice. Uh, I like the heat in my, in my chest. Um, I like the way that it, it’s resting on my tongue. It doesn’t feel too sweet, which I tend to dislike if something is kind of, I dunno, just syrupy in some way.

[00:14:43] Adam Argyle: And this is able to like, get a kind of, yeah, a good maple syrup kind of vibe, uh, with a lot of spice and, uh, but a nice finish. It’s not gooey. I like it. Yeah. It’s six, maybe more. Six and a half. I like it.

[00:14:53] Chuck Carpenter: you could grow into it.

[00:14:57] David East: I would agree, I would give it like a six. But I, I, [00:15:00] like I was saying before you joined, uh, Chuck, is that I see this being very good for an old fashioned, because I’m a big fan of Rye and old fashioned instead of bourbon. Because you get yourself a really nice, you have a nice spice palette, whereas bourbon’s, bourbon’s already sugary.

[00:15:14] David East: And then if you get like, sugar on top of sugar, it just can be a little too, like, it’s like a port wine. This, this, I think could really bring out like a good, like good old fashioned drink. Like I, I feel, I feel like this would bring some heat with that, you know, you need some burn with an old fashioned and this, this could supply that.

[00:15:30] David East: So I’m, I think, uh, I would give this a six, but I’m, I’m definitely gonna give a nice little mix some later, get some simple syrup and this Bad boy or some manga stir and I think it’ll be good.

[00:15:42] Chuck Carpenter: you and your proper Glen Carn there. Very

[00:15:44] David East: Yeah, that’s what it’s called. I forgot.

[00:15:46] Chuck Carpenter: The Glen Carn

[00:15:48] David East: I like to refer to it as

[00:15:49] Robbie Wagner: a whiskey glass.

[00:15:50] Chuck Carpenter: whiskey.

[00:15:51] David East: de do. It’s a, it’s a swoop de

[00:15:53] Chuck Carpenter: Tulip

[00:15:53] Adam Argyle: Swoop.

[00:15:54] Chuck Carpenter: in, in.

[00:15:55] David East: to swoop and then it des. So I know you’re into this, [00:16:00] but you’re not at dying level, so you

[00:16:01] Chuck Carpenter: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[00:16:02] David East: actually what we

[00:16:03] Chuck Carpenter: Well that’s why I’m so glad to have you on so that you could help me kind of improve my whiskey and drinking knowledge.

[00:16:11] David East: Yeah.

[00:16:12] Chuck Carpenter: there’s that.

[00:16:12] David East: off. You know, I’ve been listening to your podcast and I’ve just been, you’ve been

[00:16:16] Chuck Carpenter: you’ve been very confused having you.

[00:16:18] David East: yeah.

[00:16:18] David East: I’m just like, what are these terms? These are not what we call

[00:16:20] Chuck Carpenter: I don’t even know that. I don’t know what the terms are. I do know

[00:16:23] Robbie Wagner: Speaking of things we don’t know anything about,

[00:16:26] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

[00:16:26] Robbie Wagner: let’s do

[00:16:27] Adam Argyle: you’re ready for the game. He’s stoked, man.

[00:16:29] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:16:29] Chuck Carpenter: a minute. He didn’t even do his rating.

[00:16:31] Chuck Carpenter: Did you do your rating?

[00:16:32] David East: Oh, Robbie didn’t do a rating.

[00:16:33] Robbie Wagner: Oh, I didn’t do mine. I’m gonna give it a five. It’s

[00:16:36] Chuck Carpenter: it’s a five. Fuck it. Moving on. Alright.

[00:16:40] Robbie Wagner: Let’s do some CSS All.

[00:16:42] Chuck Carpenter: yeah.

[00:16:43] David East: All right. I, I, I came up with a couple and I, I have some good ones and some less good ones, but I want Adam to go first because I, we, we

[00:16:50] Adam Argyle: yeah, Sam, I have some good ones, some less good ones.

[00:16:51] Robbie Wagner: What if you guys have the same, same ones?

[00:16:53] Adam Argyle: then that’s just how in sync we are. Our cycles are the same and we’re, uh, conjuring the same [00:17:00] quiz questions. That’s just how aligned we are. We’re place center together with our display grid life. Uh, that got weird also. Okay. Alright. Which of these properties is not real in CSS Interpol?

[00:17:14] Adam Argyle: Eight size text shadow offset or content visibility.

[00:17:19] David East: not

[00:17:20] Robbie Wagner: Well, I know content visibility is real.

[00:17:22] Chuck Carpenter: Mm-Hmm. I’m gonna say tech shadow offset.

[00:17:25] Robbie Wagner: That one does sound oddly specific,

[00:17:28] Chuck Carpenter: I’m calling bullshit on that one.

[00:17:29] Robbie Wagner: yeah, I’ll, I’ll agree with that.

[00:17:32] Adam Argyle: Ding, ding ding. You guys got it right? Well done.

[00:17:36] Chuck Carpenter: Expertise.

[00:17:37] David East: you. One of mine was Tech Shadow Offset.

[00:17:42] Adam Argyle: Good thing I went first. Sucka. You gotta adapt.

[00:17:47] David East: That was my easy one. That was my easy

[00:17:49] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah. That’s some beginner shit that I also don’t know and still completely guessed on.

[00:17:55] Adam Argyle: Hey, excellent deducing. All right. You want me to go again, David, or are you up? [00:18:00] Yeah.

[00:18:00] David East: right, I’ll go. I’ll go with one. All right. I’m gonna go, instead of property, we’re gonna go with values. Okay.

[00:18:06] Robbie Wagner: Tim,

[00:18:07] David East: there is a new value ish to, to us it’s new to, Adam is very old. It’s the text wrap property. Okay?

[00:18:18] Chuck Carpenter: Mm-Hmm.

[00:18:19] David East: In the text wrap property, there are a few values you can provide it. Which one is the fake one?

[00:18:25] David East: You can give text, wrap, wrap, no wrap balance, even pretty or stable. Which one is not the real one?

[00:18:38] Robbie Wagner: gonna say rap sounds too straightforward.

[00:18:42] Chuck Carpenter: I’m gonna say stable. Stable white space.

[00:18:47] David East: Wrong.

[00:18:48] Adam Argyle: Stumped you. Damn.

[00:18:49] David East: wanna fill, you wanna fill him in on that?

[00:18:52] Adam Argyle: Oh man. Sure. If you’re, yeah, throw me, I

[00:18:54] David East: You are the one who,

[00:18:55] Adam Argyle: this. Uh, even was the.

[00:18:56] David East: yeah, that’s the one where I was like,

[00:18:58] Adam Argyle: e even with the bullshit one. [00:19:00] Yeah. Balance is when it’s gonna add line breaks to make a block pretty is when it makes sure that there’s no like orphans or widows. So there’s no kind cliff, there’s no dingleberries on your paragraph.

[00:19:10] Adam Argyle: And stable is what you can add to a text box area or like a text area that you’re, or a content editable thing. And that way while someone’s typing it will resist and sort of do its best to maintain stability for the users so that while they’re typing shit isn’t moving around.

[00:19:25] Chuck Carpenter: hmm. Interesting.

[00:19:26] Adam Argyle: in no wrap or, or regular values for, I mean, you do know wrap whenever you don’t want it, and then wrap is the opposite and

[00:19:32] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, rap and no, rap pretty is kind of bullshit because it’s just a subjective word to a degree. Right? Like

[00:19:38] David East: that’s, that’s actually why I picked this one. Because I was like, they’re either gonna say pretty or then they’re gonna do what Ravi did and be like, I bet you one of the obvious ones, isn’t it? I was like, even is one that no one’s gonna think is like a problem, they’re gonna be like text balance even.

[00:19:52] David East: That sounds right.

[00:19:54] Chuck Carpenter: sure. Make it even to every

[00:19:57] Robbie Wagner: even in, in stable, both sound kind of [00:20:00] similar. I, I heard them talk about these on, uh, syntax one time, but like, I didn’t remember the specifics, so I was like, I’ve never told it. Like, you know what, just rap police, like, I feel like, like I’ve done, like, what is it, like word, word break or like for like the other wrap property, whatever.

[00:20:19] Robbie Wagner: I always

[00:20:19] Adam Argyle: silly

[00:20:20] Robbie Wagner: I have to look ‘em up

[00:20:21] Chuck Carpenter: so you can end up with like the little ellipses at different times or whatever. I don’t, isn’t that part of it too?

[00:20:27] Robbie Wagner: like a, like a dash. But then, yeah, the, the truncate thing, like the truncate lines thing that you can’t do without, like CSS properties that are like deprecated. I forget what they are, but

[00:20:37] Adam Argyle: yeah, that’s line clamp.

[00:20:39] Robbie Wagner: write them in your editor and it’s like, don’t do that.

[00:20:42] Adam Argyle: because you have to make it, you can’t do it on a div, you have to do it on a text node or a paragraph. It’s web kit box overflow hidden. Text overflow, ellipsis. It’s like this combo of junk that, and it also is like kind of like, um, gradient text where it has to be in a specific order.

[00:20:59] Adam Argyle: There’s actually a [00:21:00] couple of scenarios on the web where order of your properties matter. ‘cause it’s looking for a specific old piece of bullshit that people have been writing for 20 years. And it makes sure that if it recognizes that chunk of junk, the chunk of junk, that it, it renders it as people have expected for all these years.

[00:21:15] Adam Argyle: And yeah, it’s ridiculous. Line clamp is coming out though, and that is, you can literally say line dash clamp one and it will clamp the paragraph to one line and ellipse on the end one property, easy values. And you could even do height. So you could say the height is 200 pixels and we’ll automatically find how many lines can go in there.

[00:21:32] Adam Argyle: And ellipse the last one. So it’s about to be easy. We’re about to escape that 20-year-old. That 20-year-old turd. Yeah.

[00:21:39] Chuck Carpenter: Turd, well win. When do we get to escape that turd? Next time? I actually have to do that. Hopefully.

[00:21:46] Adam Argyle: Hopefully. Oh yeah. Or make a progressive enhancement or something.

[00:21:49] Chuck Carpenter: Something of

[00:21:49] Robbie Wagner: I’m gonna, I have to go get my son who just woke up, so we’re gonna do the next five minutes or so with, uh, without me. We’ll just keep, uh, going in and out.

[00:21:59] Chuck Carpenter: empty [00:22:00] without me.

[00:22:01] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. So BRB.

[00:22:02] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

[00:22:02] David East: This is like the musical chairs

[00:22:04] Chuck Carpenter: we just jump in and out of all episodes. You didn’t realize that like we actually don’t tend to do too many of them completely together. ‘cause we haven’t gotten along in years and it’s just awkward. But we keep this thing going and. I don’t know. You know, so like I tried to steal Adam to, uh, you know, to replace him.

[00:22:24] Chuck Carpenter: And then Robbie’s like, I know what you’re doing. I don’t like this. And, uh, so we quiz things. We can, we can do a couple of hot takes. We can,

[00:22:34] Adam Argyle: I’m impressed. The, the, the cap is actually metal. I thought it was gonna be 3D printed or waxy or something, so I was like gentle with it earlier, but no, it’s heavy

[00:22:42] Chuck Carpenter: No, no. It’s

[00:22:43] Adam Argyle: lead, it’s like they poured lead in like a real mold. It’s, it’s super cool.

[00:22:47] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah. As far as this, this bottle goes, are you a Gure fan,

[00:22:51] Adam Argyle: I mean, I like watching them on YouTube. I don’t know if I’d go, I, I’m a fan from afar. I’m a gura far fan. Um, because I don’t wanna get sprayed. I’m too big a [00:23:00] wist to actually go and get covered in whatever it is they’re spraying on

[00:23:02] Chuck Carpenter: that’s true. Well, I just don’t do I. Concerts really anymore because they all start too late for me. And then beyond that, then the headliner is coming on much later. So it’s like doors open at seven, nobody comes on until eight 30 now you see the first couple of people. Now your headliner’s coming on at 11.

[00:23:21] Chuck Carpenter: I’m well past bedtime. I just can’t fuck with that anymore.

[00:23:24] David East: I just got back from Argentina, like literally two days ago. Love Argentina. Love

[00:23:29] Adam Argyle: Oh man, it looked so sweet. That event looked awesome.

[00:23:32] David East: was, it was, it was awesome. I, I speak our Argentine Spanish, um, well, it’s a big country, so I speak, uh, Eno Spanish, I am still very much a gringo, or as they would say, a shaky, because they were like, yeah, we’re gonna do dinner at like 10.

[00:23:50] David East: And I’m like, because the food is, uh, gonna be available at 10. Because before then we wouldn’t eat. ‘cause that would be

[00:23:58] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Then you gotta go do a [00:24:00] full asado, right? Did you do? Yeah. Okay. And I was always the one they would give the sweet breads to. I would have to tell them MoSo because Yeah, because they have amazing meat that they cook. Well done though. And I’m like,

[00:24:15] David East: Yes, they do. They cook it. Well done. But it’s, it’s very

[00:24:17] Chuck Carpenter: It’s incredible. It’s an inexpensive, yeah.

[00:24:20] Chuck Carpenter: I’m a big, I used to go down there all the time for work when I was with Nat Geo, so working with Nearshore teams and

[00:24:27] David East: It is, it’s like a, they’re like the country of like crazy wildlife. You got ue, Patagonia, uh, with ua, Zago Falls. It’s like a

[00:24:39] Chuck Carpenter: Oh yeah. Yeah. That side of the falls too. Did you have a lot of, uh, Al and Coka?

[00:24:44] David East: Yes. I mean, you have to, one must we were, we went up to this, uh, WeWork in downtown Eno, right next to the Alco, which looks just like the Washington Monument, which everybody from the United States, like what is the Washington Monument doing here? But it’s the Albano,

[00:24:59] Chuck Carpenter: Turns out we [00:25:00] didn’t invent those. Did you know that, that the United States of America didn’t invent the

[00:25:03] David East: I don’t, I don’t think it’s true actually. I think George Washington did. Um,

[00:25:08] Chuck Carpenter: did. He built his own monument before dying.

[00:25:11] David East: that’s the way she,

[00:25:11] Chuck Carpenter: like, I’ve got

[00:25:12] David East: what I saw. I was there. And if Brick by Brick, good old George,

[00:25:17] Chuck Carpenter: Good old George.

[00:25:18] David East: that’s, that’s how he

[00:25:19] Chuck Carpenter: Jorge, you know, in, in Argentina, you know?

[00:25:23] David East: Yeah. As they, ‘cause they commonly call him there. I. We were at, like on the 30 some odd floor of this WeWork and Bueno Aires is like the, uh, New York City of South America and just huge, huge city, super, like late, like city never sleeps.

[00:25:39] David East: And I had to have like a fette and co as you’re like, staring out at this like complete panorama, like ceiling to four windows of the city. And like, I’m just like, face against the glass, like walking around and everyone’s trying to talk to me and I’m like, no, I gotta look at this. This is so freaking cool.

[00:25:55] Chuck Carpenter: I’m like, check this out. Have a beverage.

[00:25:57] David East: And then, yeah, then went to a [00:26:00] parisa, did all the, all the good Argentine, uh, Argentinian. Argentinian is how you describe the culture than Argentine or ATO is the person from Argentina. Or you can, you can say, someone said

[00:26:14] Chuck Carpenter: you are quite, you are like a gaucho.

[00:26:18] David East: Definitely not a galcho. I, no,

[00:26:20] Chuck Carpenter: need that beret and you carry a knife for your meat and

[00:26:24] David East: I sleep. I have a sleep ate bed. Do you, do you think I’m sleeping outside, making my own like coffee on the thing with a knife? I don’t,

[00:26:33] Chuck Carpenter: we’re jumping way ahead on the whatnot then, so I know what we can get into. ‘cause,

[00:26:37] David East: oh, there we go.

[00:26:38] Chuck Carpenter: oh, for sure. I’m all about like, I like the outdoors, but I don’t understand people who camp nec and if they don’t have to because they like

[00:26:45] Adam Argyle: Rob and I were just talking about this.

[00:26:47] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. You, you cre you create a vacation where you have to go do a bunch of work.

[00:26:51] Chuck Carpenter: You don’t have

[00:26:52] Robbie Wagner: Fajitos, you have to make your own tacos. You’re very against that.

[00:26:55] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Well, uh, fajita is our assembly. Yeah. I, so you could see if, like, I’m on [00:27:00] vacation, I don’t wanna put my bed together and make sure like, you know, bugs don’t eat me and a bear is definitely gonna get me in there. Right. Like, if I’m in a cabin, a bear can’t get in a cabin or at least a much better chance, that’s not gonna happen.

[00:27:13] Chuck Carpenter: So Yeah. I’m with you. I’m like, yeah, go out, enjoy the outdoors and then go back and have a nice, cozy place to sleep. Have a little glass of wine around a fire that, you know the resort put together for you.

[00:27:26] David East: I don’t know. I, some of the best sleep I’ve ever had was laying on the ground in the middle of the woods while you’re just completely exhausted, and then you get woken up by a random noise and then you’re like, you know what? I’m so tired. If it gets me.

[00:27:40] Chuck Carpenter: It

[00:27:40] David East: That’s just it. It

[00:27:42] Robbie Wagner: he finished.

[00:27:42] David East: It got me, it waited, it prayed.

[00:27:45] David East: And that’s just the

[00:27:45] Chuck Carpenter: You’re, you’re fight or flight instincts are a little off, I think.

[00:27:49] David East: No, that that was just me that was so tired that you’re just like, you know, accepting that that’s, that would just be it. And so I camped a lot in my younger days and I, [00:28:00] I agree with you. Like if I had to go camp now or take my children to go camping, they would, they would not be able to, nor would I would be able to, it would all be like fuzzy memory where you’d be like, I think that goes over there.

[00:28:11] David East: And you would have to be like the dad pretending like you know what you’re doing,

[00:28:13] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, that’s what we all do anyway, whether you actually know what you’re doing, we’re all presenting anyway, and you always think you can fix the things too. You’re like, you know, kid brings you a toy, and they’re like, daddy, fix it. It’s like, all right, let me go out in the garage and see if I can tinker around here, put some glue on something.

[00:28:31] Chuck Carpenter: Make it work. Yeah.

[00:28:33] David East: Not me. I get a toy and I see it’s broken and I’m like,

[00:28:36] Chuck Carpenter: It looks like I’m buying a new

[00:28:37] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:28:37] David East: listen, unless that

[00:28:39] Robbie Wagner: will sell us another one.

[00:28:40] David East: unless that’s got a grid blowout, I am probably not going to be able to help with this one. Okay.

[00:28:47] Chuck Carpenter: Fair enough. Fair enough.

[00:28:49] Robbie Wagner: Did we talk hot takes at

[00:28:50] Chuck Carpenter: We didn’t, no. Uh, we started talking about Argentina and then went down that path, sing Rossing. Oh, my headphones went, gone for a second and then they came [00:29:00] back. They were like, I’m upset. No, I’m okay. I don’t know.

[00:29:04] Robbie Wagner: You know what else was gone for a second, but then came back

[00:29:07] Chuck Carpenter: Joe. Mama

[00:29:09] Adam Argyle: We

[00:29:09] Robbie Wagner: Rails.

[00:29:10] Chuck Carpenter: rails.

[00:29:10] Adam Argyle: Oh, rails. Yeah. Hit PH. PPHP went away somehow. It’s back now. It’s back

[00:29:15] Robbie Wagner: first hot take Rails or Laravel.

[00:29:19] David East: I’m gonna go Laravel because I once had a job interview where they told me I was gonna be building ui, front end development, CSS, JavaScripts, and then I had to write all this fricking ruby in the Java interview. None of it was J JavaScript at all. Not a bit of it. And I’m literally looking at them and then they’re looking at the back of me like, huh.

[00:29:39] David East: And I’m like. What the, I’m like you, you said, we talked about styling a website in the last one and this one’s got Ruby and now we’ve gotta write a sorting algorithm that connects up to this AWS bucket through this rails thing. And it was like the most embarrassing interview I’ve ever had where the guy felt so [00:30:00] bad for me that he kind of started talking me through the answer.

[00:30:02] David East: ‘cause I think he didn’t want that like dead air of like, this guy doesn’t know what’s going on. And so he was literally like, oh yeah, you know what it is? He was like, and I remember he was trying to talk about like the, the sorting album music. Like that one would be J to the K and then, then then kgo to the T and I was literally like,

[00:30:20] Robbie Wagner: Oh

[00:30:20] David East: where’s the, where’s the door of which I leave?

[00:30:23] Robbie Wagner: I just say no. Like if someone asks me to do a thing like that, I’m no dog. Like I’ve been writing front end for so long. There’s no way. I do not need a sorting algorithm. If I do INPM install, sorting algorithm, so like.

[00:30:37] Adam Argyle: Even though I admire Ruby, I admire Rails in a lot of ways and I’ve emulated multiple parts of their stack. Uh, especially active record seems to be one of their most famous and well applied computer science concepts for data. I choose PHP ‘cause I, the last time I was writing it, I think it was like four or five, and I was making classes and I was starting to explore it as a bigger language than I was capable of at the time.

[00:30:59] Adam Argyle: And then I haven’t [00:31:00] touched it since. But I remember a lot of it, just the language itself. And so I feel like if I was to go into Laravel, I’d feel a little bit more at home and I’d be excited about what PHP is offering now, and I would sort of be like a kid candy shop, and then flux looks cool. So I’d definitely give Caleb eos UI library a shot i’d.

[00:31:17] Adam Argyle: It’s a, it’s a stack I’d like to To poke. Yeah.

[00:31:21] Robbie Wagner: Now that you’ve both said PHP, let me announce, uh, our special secret guest, DHH joining us right now. Now I’m just

[00:31:29] Chuck Carpenter: I don’t think he’d have any shade about that though. I think like, uh, you know, it’s another bro with

[00:31:34] Robbie Wagner: the job kind

[00:31:34] Chuck Carpenter: like with a,

[00:31:35] Adam Argyle: craft. Yeah. He is like, look, anybody can make a cool website. The stack isn’t as important as someone understanding their tools and being passionate and spending the time to finesse the corners. Yeah.

[00:31:45] Chuck Carpenter: yeah. I. Exactly. It’s batteries included. It’s, I think it, it, it follows a lot of his like ideologies around operating fast and not solving problems until you’re actually faced with them and you have some success, right? [00:32:00] Like Yeah. Instead of like frontloading scaling issues that may never occur.

[00:32:04] Adam Argyle: That’s never done well for me, it’s one of those things that feels so good to do. You’re like, ah, I’m gonna solve a problem before I have it. I’m just gonna go ahead and stand on the shoulders of giants and trust that this entire thing is gonna work for my case. And I’m just gonna jump ahead to as if this thing is in a Megatron hosting provider.

[00:32:23] Adam Argyle: And then all you do is you’re just like, why are there so many abstractions? I just, yeah. Solve the problems you have. I think that’s the best tip. And to get something quickly, especially,

[00:32:33] Chuck Carpenter: So it sounds like you’re being nice about both of those things though. So Rails or Laravel.

[00:32:38] CTA: This just in! Whiskey.fund is now open for all your merch needs. That’s right, Robbie. We’re hearing reports of hats, sweaters, and T-shirts, as well as a link to join our Discord server. What’s a Discord server? Just read the prompter, man. Hit subscribe. Leave us a review on your favorite podcast app and tell your friends [00:33:00] about our broadcast. It really does help us reach more people and keeps the show growing. All right, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[00:33:11] Chuck Carpenter: This is a funny one though, Robbie. I guess so. Wind Crete. Yeah. Wind coating. Cursor or pair ai,

[00:33:20] David East: Oh no man. You’re talking to the wrong one,

[00:33:23] Adam Argyle: got an IDX shirt on, bro. Yeah, I’m

[00:33:25] David East: talking to someone who works for a code editor?

[00:33:28] Adam Argyle: This is what I mean though. There’s a battle royal happening in, in this terms of like AI enhanced code editors, especially ones built on VS code and there’s a bunch,

[00:33:36] David East: here’s, here’s my little hot take then. So IDX is a, you know, IDX dev for anyone listening is code editor through Google and it does AI stuff. Sure, yes, ai. I like AI stuff.

[00:33:48] David East: I do lots of AI stuff. But one of the things that I think is most interesting about this, this sky right here, is actually one little file that we shipped with all of our [00:34:00] workspaces. And like when I first started working at one job, they gave us a 60 page document to set up our work machine. The beautiful

[00:34:09] Adam Argyle: week. It was a week of time, right? Yeah. You got a week to set up your Devon.

[00:34:12] Chuck Carpenter: sure.

[00:34:13] David East: No, it was like a whole life. Because what ended up happening was is, is you had to set up all these dev machines, run all these installers, and like nothing ever worked. So then you would have to go and update the doc and then say, Hey, like now, now it works this way. And so the next person comes along, they’re better off from you.

[00:34:30] David East: But the problem was is that here are X amount of developers all setting up a machine at different points in time through basically different instructions and then we’re all supposed to work on the same project. Like that did not go very well. So like every single time we would do anything, I’d be at someone’s desk, me like, I get this error, and they’re like, no, I don’t have that error.

[00:34:50] David East: And our entire dev environment was completely different at all points in time. So with IDX, one of the things we, we do is we have, we base our whole [00:35:00] system off of Nix. Like Nix OS is a open source system that basically there, there are three tenets is. Reproducibility, immutability and declarative, I think.

[00:35:10] David East: And so within there, you, there’s a whole system where you say like, I want Python 3.13, I want node 20, I want this one, I want that. And you declare it in a file and then it builds it. And then everything is so immutable and declarative that when you rebuild your environment, we actually wipe your whole project partition clean, and then we just rebuild and re like throw everything down on there.

[00:35:33] David East: So it’s basically like a new function, immutable function call as an environment. And so anyone who has that file is like up to go. And I, I didn’t know, I, I, this is past five for me, by the way, so I didn’t think I would be doing like a work pitch, uh, while I’m drinking whiskey. But to me, what I, my hot take is, is that I think that with this whole resurgence of AI editors, that we do focus a whole lot on ai, but AI is like, takes you far from [00:36:00] the potential to like be your co-pilot and like work alongside you and help you with these plans.

[00:36:05] David East: But like there’s still so much work involved in like making sure, like the foundation work that I don’t think can be sort of forgotten about. Like just getting something spun up on a local machine. Like how many times have you been like, I wanna try out that thing. And you don’t because you’re like, uh, okay, well my version of this thing is different and I need that to be the same for this other project to work in a machine.

[00:36:27] David East: And I am not installing a version manager. And I, okay, you know what, I’m

[00:36:30] Robbie Wagner: should install a version manager.

[00:36:32] David East: no, see that’s the thing that’s beautiful about you. So like this, you don’t need a version manager. You literally can create a new machine or rebuild or something like that. And then that’s less tooling, less overhead, less concept on the

[00:36:44] Robbie Wagner: but then it’s using a version manager.

[00:36:47] David East: It is actually using a versioned registry. So the way Nix works is, is not just a operating system, but Nix also, this is something that took me like the longest time to understand. Everything with Nix, and [00:37:00] it’s not like the longest time to understand because it’s hard. It’s because like, you know, it’s one of those things you refuse to understand despite the amount of time people tell you this.

[00:37:07] David East: So like with MPM, you can publish a package, package as a version, and then those packages granularly update. But MPM is a registry. Imagine if MPM was a versioned registry itself, and once you publish a package to that registry, that was it. And then you had to wait for another version of a registry of NPM to come out for you to publish your package version.

[00:37:28] David East: So the benefit there is, is that if you pin your registry and to a NS registry, you’re basically saying, I can guarantee for everyone on my team that if you state this package name, you will get this package version. It’s no like, oh I pulled this down and it’s some like, oh, this had a peer dependency of this and this had, or that you get the cascading madness with dependencies at times with Nicks, it’s not that way.

[00:37:52] David East: It’s the each version of the registry. So that way you don’t need version management tools. You just say, we talked to Nicks [00:38:00] version 23 point 11 or whatever.

[00:38:02] Chuck Carpenter: So was this kind of like. A container level registry then, so you kind of like think about a container. Each container version has its own registry version and so just everything comes with that like environment version to a degree.

[00:38:17] David East: You could think about it that way. Nix is very different than, I don’t wanna say very different, but is not containers. The way, actually, and I get this question a lot because you have like GI up code spaces that uses dev containers and then we use Nix. And so people are all kind of like, what’s the difference?

[00:38:30] David East: And then I actually, um, I, to answer this question like the other, actually when I was in Argentina and I did like a really bad job of answering it, I was kind of like, you know, you got like a thing over here and that. It’s got that thing and then you got this one over here and it doesn’t, and everyone’s like, okay.

[00:38:47] David East: And so I had this engineer who was like, you know, like he, he explained this to me and he was like, think about dev containers, like node modules or like containers in general, like node modules. You’re taly taking the gigabytes of files and [00:39:00] you’re saying like, let’s put ‘em all down on this big thing, the container.

[00:39:03] David East: And so it’s gigabytes or how, however. And then you can take that and you can move it wherever you want. And then it’s nice shrink wrapped. It’s ready to go. When it gets plugged into its spot, that’s like the benefit of containers. You can really say, Hey, we’ve, we’ve put everything in here with Nicks.

[00:39:18] David East: You’re a nix file. In our case, we have our own abstraction called Dev Nix that is like package, JSON. It does not contain all your dependencies and everything like that. It just, the declarative like, I want no 20. I want Python, whatever. I want Postgres, I want Docker. I, ‘cause you can even manage Docker within Nix.

[00:39:37] David East: From there, you’re basically just saying, Hey, when you run this whole nix build environment, pull from this registry version. Just like I’d pull, do an MP M install, and then now it’s build this immutable, declarative reproducible environment for everyone. But I didn’t have to bring all of the, you know, the big containers over with me, or I didn’t have to put everything into the container all at once, if that [00:40:00] makes sense.

[00:40:01] Robbie Wagner: can I fork this and then get a bunch of funding to build the same thing?

[00:40:07] David East: don’t know why you would

[00:40:08] Chuck Carpenter: It’s ours now.

[00:40:09] David East: Uh,

[00:40:11] Chuck Carpenter: We could try. We’re both a little old though, you know, we’re not in the YC demographic anymore. So this episode is brought to you by Y Combinator.

[00:40:20] David East: I will say,

[00:40:21] Chuck Carpenter: money for any fucking thing.

[00:40:23] David East: properly forking something is not easy. I, I remember so many times in my career where like you have a fork of something and then you just can’t get it synced, and then you kind of look at the code you have in your fork and then you do that way of like.

[00:40:37] David East: How much is in this fork is worth doing? All of the get magic and gymnastics I need to do to get it into Maine versus just like stashing these files somewhere and then, then just applying like, oh, I repoed the fork and applied it. Oh no, who saw that? And so, you know, forking is, forking is four king’s

[00:40:57] Robbie Wagner: how I would always do it.

[00:40:58] Chuck Carpenter: favorite way to deal with merge

[00:40:59] Robbie Wagner: I [00:41:00] am. Yeah, anytime there’s like more than one thing. Yeah. I’m just like, Nope, I’m gonna like copy everything I changed. I just reset it the main and like just apply it all again because. It’s just not worth it. And I know there’s a lot of different, like, you know, hacks around that to where you can like, not have to make it as hard, but still it’s just like, it’s just

[00:41:20] David East: You should learn, you should learn git. I, I think that

[00:41:24] Robbie Wagner: Should you use Rebase or Merge though?

[00:41:27] David East: man, that’s a great question.

[00:41:29] Chuck Carpenter: not. There’s only one right answer unless you’re not senior.

[00:41:31] David East: oh, you’re gonna say rebase then, aren’t you?

[00:41:35] Robbie Wagner: Why would you think

[00:41:36] David East: Only people who say rebase are people who are like, oh, there’s only one. Right? I’ve never met a merge person who’s like, oh, there’s only one I’d answer merge.

[00:41:44] David East: People are literally

[00:41:45] Robbie Wagner: people don’t understand

[00:41:46] Chuck Carpenter: because the merge people

[00:41:47] Robbie Wagner: I don’t know

[00:41:48] David East: I knew you were gonna say that.

[00:41:49] Chuck Carpenter: them and they never learn anything else. That’s what the merge people

[00:41:52] David East: merge people. Here’s fine. Here’s a little spicy take. I, I, I like rebasing as well. Merge people though are people who wanna get stuff done. [00:42:00] Rebates, people are people who wanna make sure that everything looks, oh, I’m saying, I’m like Adam right now.

[00:42:04] David East: Everything looks good. My l sock, my, it goes on my L foot and my, our sock goes on my right foot and everything just is holy fine and really

[00:42:13] Adam Argyle: is a string and then it’s still a string. And now it’s still a string. And guess what? It’s still a string, but ignore the last little part where it wasn’t a string for sugar. I’m so

[00:42:24] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. We type coerced for like one second in order to get it string True to true, true

[00:42:29] David East: Rebasing is is nice and it looks really great. But I do think it’s funny that the right decision, the def facto right decision requires pushing or using a force push to get it working. So I do think there’s a bit of a coat

[00:42:43] Robbie Wagner: If you’re,

[00:42:44] Chuck Carpenter: lease, by the

[00:42:45] Robbie Wagner: if you’re writing a, an a paragraph of like just English and you write a sentence right after you write that sentence, do you say, Hey, I wrote that sentence. ‘cause if not, rebase.

[00:42:58] David East: But you would [00:43:00] also like merging and squashing is, is also a very, I think that if you don’t want

[00:43:05] Robbie Wagner: squashing is still rebasing,

[00:43:07] David East: Yes. But you don’t have to rebase.

[00:43:09] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Yeah,

[00:43:10] David East: I’m talking about as far as practical use case goes. ‘cause I, I used to do work on the Angular team and it was a, it was a rebase culture.

[00:43:18] David East: Like it was scary every time I would, I didn’t care what my code did. I could be changing a read meet, I could be like doing whatever, like all advanced stuff. Anytime I had to do a rebate, I was always like, oh no, I was like, this is gonna be bad. And then like Jeff Cross, he works on NARAL now, like, you know, NX fame, he used to sit next to me and I’d literally be like, Jeff, I can’t do it, Jeff.

[00:43:43] David East: I can’t do it. And he would like, sit down. I’d be like, we’re, we’re gonna make it through this buddy. And I, he’d be like, oh my, I can hit the enter button now. And he’s like, you can do it. And I’d be like

[00:43:55] Adam Argyle: Have a gi, I have a GI feature request. Okay. So in my experience, rebasing [00:44:00] is particularly difficult because it should be called reba because it’s generally multiple rebase businesses that you have to do, right? It’s not just like, ‘cause what Robbie’s saying is he kind of like to pull latest, like, ignore all this shit that I’ve done.

[00:44:14] Adam Argyle: Get here, get for one second. Would you just pull, latest, ignore everything I’ve done, and then. Repl my shit on top. What it does is it does every single commit. It like kind of does a rebase check or something and in case there’s a merge conflict, it gives you this moment in this like sliver moment. And I’m like, look, I don’t care.

[00:44:31] Adam Argyle: I want to pull. So my request is, is I’d like Aase. That kind of works like what Robbie’s describing, which is just pull everything, stash everything. I have all of my commits, just like act like they don’t exist. Poll latest,

[00:44:42] Chuck Carpenter: Fast forward.

[00:44:43] Adam Argyle: back up to fast forward and then re plop on these things one, one by one.

[00:44:47] Adam Argyle: And I estimate in that scenario there’s way less conflicts than the amount of conflicts I get. Typically rebasing. That’s the frustrating part with the rebase, is you hit Rebase. Yeah. And as it says conflict. And you’re like, what do you mean conflict? I’m working on a file that’s like totally somewhere [00:45:00] else and it goes, no you’re not.

[00:45:00] Adam Argyle: And you’re like, oh, come on. Uh.

[00:45:03] Robbie Wagner: So I think this is completely uneducated on my part, and you guys might know better, but I heard the pri Magen say this, it’s probably true. So there’s like a,

[00:45:11] David East: it’s, it’s true. Why are we, why are we talking

[00:45:13] Robbie Wagner: there’s a, like a rere re flag basically that you can just say like, if I fix these conflicts already, just take how I did that and apply it to like, the next 30 commits

[00:45:24] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. It learns through doing that. So the first few times you have that crap and

[00:45:28] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. So then you don’t have to go like, I just fixed this, I just fixed this, I just fixed this. ‘cause it’s like, it just applies that, which is like, still not exactly what you’re asking for, but it’s like better. And I, I’ve been scared to try it, so I haven’t tried it myself, but uh, I’ve heard that

[00:45:41] Adam Argyle: like when you just take mine the whole time. You’re like, dash, dash, take mine, fuck theirs. Like, I want my code. Whatever I’ve done

[00:45:48] Robbie Wagner: that’s the actual flagged.

[00:45:51] David East: I have done that and been so screwed by that where you’re like, I, all my stuff is great. And then you like overlook something and then you like check in some of those, [00:46:00] like get lines where you’re like, where it’s like, you know there’s yours and you’re like.

[00:46:05] Chuck Carpenter: oops.

[00:46:05] Adam Argyle: So GI Butler, get CLI GitHub desktop or Tower. How y’all

[00:46:11] Robbie Wagner: It depends. So I use GitHub desktop everywhere I can, which means not at work. So I use Tower at work and GitHub desktop. Otherwise, ‘cause we, we use GitHub for like, you know, everything. ‘cause it’s where open source is, but then like for work code, it’s not, and it’s scary. So I use

[00:46:29] Chuck Carpenter: tower. I, I use command line for everything. ‘cause I got. Whipped into shape many years ago and forced down

[00:46:38] Adam Argyle: you Tortoise and after you, uh, Maven or not Maven? What was the one store with the name? Mercurial. So you, you tortoise, you

[00:46:44] Robbie Wagner: SVN. Yeah.

[00:46:45] Adam Argyle: you. Yeah.

[00:46:46] Chuck Carpenter: Beanstalk with an app, a

[00:46:49] Robbie Wagner: yeah, I used that too. Yeah.

[00:46:50] Chuck Carpenter: sublime, I think it was, or what did that Sublime, uh, subversion. Yeah.

[00:46:55] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. That was back when I was writing PHPA little bit.

[00:46:57] Chuck Carpenter: PHP in the wild, wild [00:47:00] west. So, uh, yeah. What’s funny is that I don’t care that much. I care about consistency. So if you merge, commit, everybody does that. If you rebase, everybody does that kind of thing.

[00:47:11] Chuck Carpenter: I do think it’s a, it’s a litmus test though. Yeah, for sure. Exactly. It’s a litmus test to a degree though, if you are willing to rebase or something in my mind. And, uh, if you don’t understand the get fu a boot dev has a gi

[00:47:26] David East: Mm.

[00:47:27] Chuck Carpenter: uh, learn get and advanced learn get.

[00:47:30] Robbie Wagner: not a code won’t get you any percent

[00:47:32] Chuck Carpenter: No primo. Uh, it’s. Primo has a, he has a course on there about learning it.

[00:47:37] Chuck Carpenter: So it’s actually

[00:47:39] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Slash slash prime I think is the actual one, or is it prime Agen? I think it’s Prime,

[00:47:44] Chuck Carpenter: He makes them

[00:47:44] David East: you know. I have a hot take about what you just said where you were saying that you’re like, you know, it’s just consistency. That’s all that matters. That is literally what people say when they deeply hold an opinion but wanna like, you know, hedge a little on their opinionated nature [00:48:00] where they’re like, listen, listen, I think this is the one right way you should ever do anything.

[00:48:04] David East: And if you don’t, I think less of you as a developer, however, consistency is the key. But if you had to consistently be in a emerge convey environment, I’m pretty sure you would go

[00:48:15] Chuck Carpenter: All I’ve been there as a

[00:48:17] David East: you would, you would be

[00:48:18] Chuck Carpenter: been in many places that I may or may not want to be or completely agree with. But here’s the funny thing, David, is I definitely have been in that place where I’m like, oh, I use these as. Tools to judge to a degree and like have some sort of false sense of superiority because like, oh, I picked this thing and I liked it the best in these other projects.

[00:48:39] Chuck Carpenter: So apparently it’ll make every project that same like panacea, amazingness, and turns out that’s a, uh, a recipe for disappointment. So in my now older years, I really don’t like, honestly, like, yeah, I have preferences for myself, but in the grand scheme of things, like I don’t [00:49:00] care that much. These are all tools in my, in my mind, like I am using these tools and if it’s not my favorite hammer, that’s cool, but I still gotta get the job done.

[00:49:09] Chuck Carpenter: Like I, earlier, I would pick rails ‘cause I’m very interested in rails right now and going down that path. But honestly, if you were like, Adam’s like, Hey, I’m starting on this project and I want your help, and like, let’s do this thing. And he’s like, I pick Laravel. I won’t be like, well fuck that if you won’t pick rails with me and I’m not helping you.

[00:49:28] Adam Argyle: Whatever, establish your dominance and show us how pro you are by

[00:49:30] Chuck Carpenter: I just, I just do that.

[00:49:32] Adam Argyle: does. That’s how you quick rise,

[00:49:34] Chuck Carpenter: no, no, I’ll just do that by chugging a bottle of whiskey with you, which I have done, and then I’ll just arm wrestle you after, so,

[00:49:40] David East: it’s not the big decisions that people can’t get behind. I feel like everyone can get behind big decisions like, Hey, we’re gonna, we’re gonna use Laravel, not rails, or we’re gonna, we’re gonna use next Js instead of next, or whatever. Everyone’s gonna be like,

[00:49:52] Chuck Carpenter: ‘cause they hate

[00:49:53] David East: But, but if you put in like someone’s like, Hey, we’re kind of a

[00:49:59] Robbie Wagner: Fresca right [00:50:00] now, Adam?

[00:50:00] David East: he is

[00:50:00] Adam Argyle: I, I’ve switched to the mix. Yeah. So I did the straight

[00:50:03] David East: You mixed it.

[00:50:04] Adam Argyle: I had a couple fingers of that. Yeah. So I wait. I had like four fingers of just straight whiskey. Then I dropped in.

[00:50:09] David East: Oh, kit.

[00:50:10] Chuck Carpenter: is streaming crap. Sorry.

[00:50:13] Adam Argyle: Oops. Can’t edit that up. And then I dripped in, so I dripped in some purified water. In the next one I got a, got a alternative uh, flavor palette. And now I’m on the whiskey just to sort of like cleanse the pal. The kids are coming home. I don’t want to better have whiskey on the bread or peach fresco on the breast?

[00:50:29] David East: Oh, now we got a special guest. Every time a dog comes on it, it must be addressed.

[00:50:35] Chuck Carpenter: Oh, I

[00:50:35] Robbie Wagner: He thinks he’s a cat though,

[00:50:37] Chuck Carpenter: Seemed this is his interview.

[00:50:39] Adam Argyle: Oh,

[00:50:39] David East: the dog’s name?

[00:50:40] Robbie Wagner: Jake.

[00:50:41] David East: Jay. Oh, whoa.

[00:50:43] Adam Argyle: Hey. And Finn the human right on,

[00:50:45] David East: I wanted, I wanted a Frenchie. So I have two dogs and they are, I have 200 pounds

[00:50:52] Adam Argyle: man. Yeah.

[00:50:53] David East: Oh yeah. She is. Uh, I, I have a Kool-Aid man. I have a dog who I call the Kool-Aid man, because she, I have these

[00:50:58] Robbie Wagner: Bust through the wall.[00:51:00]

[00:51:00] David East: Right there. And then anytime I do anything, she will just like howl plow through and she’s like, oh yeah.

[00:51:06] David East: And it’s just like,

[00:51:07] Chuck Carpenter: amazing.

[00:51:08] David East: no matter how many days it happens, it still scares me so much. And then I have to, I have these like locks up at the top and then I one time like locked it. ‘cause like I don’t want kids running in. And then I just heard her go and the door just stopped and I felt so deeply bad in my soul.

[00:51:24] David East: So now those doors never get shut because I never know when she’s gonna come and pop in. And I’m like, she, she’s a 6-year-old Bernice Mountain dog. The last thing she needs is like

[00:51:34] Chuck Carpenter: can knock that door down. She really wants, let’s be honest.

[00:51:36] David East: she is, she’s, she’s the light one. She’s 85. I have my, my young guy, he’s 115 pounds,

[00:51:42] Robbie Wagner: Oh, wow. Have they been, uh, swimming around with all the rain that’s going on?

[00:51:48] David East: To get them to go outside in the rain is like, it’s a, you, you literally have to like

[00:51:53] Adam Argyle: Yeah. Why are Bernice is so scared of like weather and stuff.

[00:51:56] David East: can do this. Let’s go. They [00:52:00] are,

[00:52:00] Adam Argyle: weird. It’s weird.

[00:52:01] David East: they don’t like adverse. They like the snow, but they don’t like adverse conditions of anything at all.

[00:52:08] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, ours are the same. We came home to like a hundred poops in the house after, uh, but we left them with a dog sitter, but she just like could not get them to go outside to go to the bathroom. I was just like, all right, this is, he’s affect great. But

[00:52:22] David East: know that, uh, you know, like a Roomba like vacuum or any one of those? One time my, my 6-year-old birdie’s mo daughter, but she was little. She pooped inside and the Roomba went just right over. And then the Roomba was like, you know, it was like a Humvee, it was just literally like, and like just, you know, got it real good. Like those things are made for, you would think that they, you know, they couldn’t do it, but, oh no, they got it. And then it was like, you know what I’m gonna do now? I got myself, I got, oh, it didn’t suck it up. It just, uh, spread

[00:52:56] Robbie Wagner: got

[00:52:56] Chuck Carpenter: Oh, I

[00:52:56] David East: All over. And you know what? They’re very good at [00:53:00] getting through the whole room.

[00:53:01] David East: So we came downstairs and it was, yeah. And I was like, it did The job can’t be mad.

[00:53:08] Chuck Carpenter: but did you clean it or did you

[00:53:10] David East: Oh yeah. That, oh no. That this is like the actual carpet in the basement of

[00:53:15] Chuck Carpenter: right, right. But the Roomba, the Roomba would’ve thrown

[00:53:18] David East: Oh. The Roomba was done. It, it, it didn’t, it had no will to live. It was asking me to be let be. It was like, I can’t live anymore.

[00:53:26] David East: Please. Yes.

[00:53:28] Chuck Carpenter: like shit.

[00:53:29] David East: Yeah. I had to put it, I had to put the Roomba down. It asked for, for it to be over.

[00:53:34] Chuck Carpenter: man, it makes sense. I’m a bummer.

[00:53:36] Robbie Wagner: So I do want to find out ‘cause we only have a few minutes left. What’s up with CSS four and CSS five.

[00:53:43] Adam Argyle: Oh yeah. Okay. Nice. That’s a good question. So we’re, we’re pretty much done creating the sections of those. There’s a whole work community group called the CSS Next Community Group. We’ve been bucketing these things and putting them into different spaces for, I. Uh, for months we went through every single CSS property and decided if it was 3, 4, 5, or if it [00:54:00] wasn’t even ready for a bucket yet.

[00:54:01] Adam Argyle: That’s pretty official. I can give a CSS six, it’s gonna be there. I mean, it’s kind of, we’re at the, we’re at the, like the tipping point of it right now. And then what, what emerged outta that, that we’re like, we didn’t expect was everyone’s like, well, what are we gonna do with the CSS three shield? And we’re like, well, you should, you should burn it.

[00:54:17] Adam Argyle: That thing should never get used again. And they’re like, well, cool. That worked great. Raw. Yeah, burn it. But hey, what do we show instead? And we’re like, I don’t know. And so we’ve been working on a logo, so how we got a logo, we have a CSS logo that’s trying to be the best logo that it can inside of something like VS Code.

[00:54:34] Adam Argyle: So right next to js you’d have a CSS logo. So it looks like it’s in the family. Same with Ts and, uh, web assembling a couple of the other ones. Then we’re also coming up these additional logos that have numbers on ‘em and that all that, all that work is really going good. We have a PR that we’re about to open up on the proper CSS working group repo, which claims that there will never be a CSS four, but we will make an addendum that said they were wrong 10 years ago.

[00:54:57] Adam Argyle: There is a CSS four and a CSS five. Here’s a [00:55:00] new document published on the Dr on the specs that describe these new buckets. And so they’re basically like, we didn’t wanna do the work, or we didn’t think anyone would care about the work. Turns out people care about the work. We don’t wanna do it. Y’all wanna do it, you wanna do it?

[00:55:12] Adam Argyle: Oh, great. Here, they’re doing it over here and they’re gonna bring it in. And so, uh, that’s kind of where we’re at. It’s about to be brought in and yeah, it’ll help us talk about stuff. It’ll help us make cool posters or make good

[00:55:23] Chuck Carpenter: gonna say T-shirts or stickers or

[00:55:26] Robbie Wagner: can I get a sticker or a shirt yet? That’s the important question.

[00:55:30] Adam Argyle: The base logo, just kind of, and I don’t, I wouldn’t even say it’s like a hundred percent done, but the base logo just hit a very stable release candidate this week. And the logo with numbers is undergoing multiple revisions. We’ve had an RC one and an RC two. I really like the RC two that’s kinda like the same, it’s like a square.

[00:55:45] Adam Argyle: It’s got CSS in it and it has a number at the top with a long shadow

[00:55:48] Chuck Carpenter: Is there a badge we can put on our, our websites? Do you remember? Like back in the day where

[00:55:52] David East: oh yeah.

[00:55:53] Robbie Wagner: Oh yeah. HTML five.

[00:55:54] Chuck Carpenter: Correct. Or whatever it would be that you’d put on. You’d be like, yeah, I’m, I’m not using random divs, but now I am [00:56:00] using random divs again. So it’s like, you know, comes around full circle. But it used to be the thing where you were like, this is not a table layout website.

[00:56:08] Chuck Carpenter: It’s W three C certified using real HTML.

[00:56:12] Robbie Wagner: They looked at it.

[00:56:12] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. But it made me feel like I

[00:56:15] Adam Argyle: went through the HMO validator.

[00:56:16] Chuck Carpenter: Yes,

[00:56:18] David East: Oh my god. Yeah, I got greeted on that in, in college, like whether your h invalidate, you’re gonna lose points.

[00:56:24] Chuck Carpenter: I’m impressed that they did that. They went as far as that. He went to a good school. Must not have been in Virginia,

[00:56:30] Robbie Wagner: at ‘em or,

[00:56:31] Adam Argyle: made a square. Uh, I think some kids just arrived, but I got some time. Lemme see if I can pull up

[00:56:35] Robbie Wagner: okay. I didn’t know if your hard stop was like important, meaning that could not be

[00:56:40] Chuck Carpenter: Well, he was thinking this was gonna be really?

[00:56:42] Adam Argyle: do have a meeting at 3:00 PM Yes, you’re right.

[00:56:44] Chuck Carpenter: Oh my gosh. Well,

[00:56:46] Adam Argyle: do have a work thing. Here’s, here’s the repo with the status of the logo ish. Oh shit. That is so funny.

[00:56:53] Chuck Carpenter: so,

[00:56:54] Robbie Wagner: will do that to

[00:56:55] Chuck Carpenter: at home, it is [00:57:00] github.com/css-next/css-next.

[00:57:01] Robbie Wagner: to like none of the questions I wrote down so we can do

[00:57:03] David East: We didn’t What if cereal a soup?

[00:57:05] Chuck Carpenter: you send us whiskey this time though? Next time? Like

[00:57:08] Adam Argyle: whoa.

[00:57:09] David East: Yeah. Oh, let’s do it.

[00:57:11] Robbie Wagner: by

[00:57:11] Chuck Carpenter: are you bad at CSS and whiskey choices? That’s what I wanna know. I wouldn’t be surprised for once I’m always doing the procurement of, and what if I’m robbing?

[00:57:22] Chuck Carpenter: What are we gonna send it in?

[00:57:23] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I think we should do a CSS four whiskey barrel pick.

[00:57:29] Chuck Carpenter: Okay.

[00:57:30] Robbie Wagner: Let’s make CSS cool

[00:57:31] Chuck Carpenter: Will Google pay for it?

[00:57:33] Robbie Wagner: let’s put the, the CSS logo on, on some whiskey bottles and ship them to everyone we know.

[00:57:38] Chuck Carpenter: Mm-Hmm. Yes. Yes.

[00:57:39] Adam Argyle: Is a good idea. It’s kinda like the coffee folks that like, JavaScript is really cool. People love saying Nil and Nolan shit. So let’s make a coffee brand. It ships out, it says Noll and Nolan Shit.

[00:57:48] Robbie Wagner: Yeah,

[00:57:49] Chuck Carpenter: Terminal coffee.

[00:57:51] Adam Argyle: Terminal Coffee. Is that that

[00:57:52] Chuck Carpenter: I mean, the branding

[00:57:53] Robbie Wagner: retired now, so

[00:57:54] Chuck Carpenter: they all retired. They have Lambos, they have orange

[00:57:56] Adam Argyle: I know I’m, I’m making fun of them, but obviously I’m a little jelly, [00:58:00] so,

[00:58:00] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, you just wanna ride some Go Codes so you can have like a shell store. Right. Like they do was like shell in to

[00:58:06] Adam Argyle: to respect me that I actually write a fork

[00:58:10] Chuck Carpenter: So terminal UIs, right. Do you have opinions on, on two and like.

[00:58:16] Adam Argyle: Yeah. Tuy, gooeys and ey. Yeah.

[00:58:18] Robbie Wagner: I’ve got threes.

[00:58:19] Chuck Carpenter: Two are cool because like they’ve come back, I’m like into it now. I didn’t really get it until like there was a reference to like how much business is still run on Tuy. And I remember when I worked for an airline like 25 years ago and that’s what it was, it was like a 1970 terminal and you had all these keystrokes to get around and do

[00:58:36] Robbie Wagner: is, especially if you’re southwest.

[00:58:38] Chuck Carpenter: for sure. Yeah, exactly. Southwest is on the Tuy, so it’s like, oh yeah, that’s kind of cool. There’s whole like library, at least the terminal app is in go and it uses, I forget the name of the like Tuy library, but it’s like candy something or I don’t know, but it’s really neat actually. And they were able to like do these layouts and all this stuff in that like that’s kind of cool.

[00:58:58] Chuck Carpenter: It’s not CSS, but it [00:59:00] is thinking about UIs in a different context.

[00:59:02] Adam Argyle: UIs, we can’t get around them. People want to think they’re dumb, but you, it’s like a dece. I saw someone the other day tweeted, it’s unfair when a service has good design. It’s just unfair.

[00:59:14] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, it’s just

[00:59:14] Adam Argyle: And I was like, uh, wrong. Uh, that is.

[00:59:18] David East: Yeah,

[00:59:18] Chuck Carpenter: Well, but you have conversely, like there are some things that become so ne necessary that in spite of themselves they do really well. Right? Like, you know, the initial Google

[00:59:28] Robbie Wagner: by AWS.

[00:59:29] Chuck Carpenter: uh, sponsored by

[00:59:30] Adam Argyle: Yeah. It’s possible with a W

[00:59:31] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Think exactly,

[00:59:34] David East: ever updated their ui, I am pretty sure they go bankrupt in like the matter

[00:59:38] Adam Argyle: People would

[00:59:38] Robbie Wagner: Oh, yeah.

[00:59:39] Chuck Carpenter: so because like, here’s the thing, anybody spending real AWS money does not use the console to manage any of their infrastructure.

[00:59:47] Robbie Wagner: Craigslist.

[00:59:48] Chuck Carpenter: Oh, Craigslist. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:59:50] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. If

[00:59:50] Adam Argyle: I agree. Everybody’s

[00:59:51] Robbie Wagner: the look, people are like, I’m being phished. This isn’t

[00:59:53] David East: yeah. Oh yeah. No. Craigslist is like, it’s like it,

[00:59:56] Chuck Carpenter: I’m gonna do the open source. Craigslist. Craigslist. That [01:00:00] isn’t ugly. Maybe

[01:00:01] Robbie Wagner: think they’re using next JS though, aren’t

[01:00:02] Chuck Carpenter: Uh, yeah. 15. It’s bleeding edge too. And, and, uh, uh, react compiler and server components. And, uh, yeah, just ask Act. That’s not his

[01:00:11] David East: They’re like, it’s a for loop and a PHP script. They’re like, that’s what we’re using.

[01:00:15] Chuck Carpenter: I’ve got two things before Adam can go. First of all, yeah, I wanna recognize that.

[01:00:19] Chuck Carpenter: Did you see that banter be between Guillermo and Dax, where he was like, Guillermo said like Dax his new sponsor, CloudFlare?

[01:00:27] Robbie Wagner: you listened to their podcast where he talks about it? ‘cause Oh my God, you got

[01:00:31] Chuck Carpenter: Okay. Yeah, it came out like two days ago or something and I, I, it’s been in my queue so I really want to, but yeah, he puts this post and is like, motherfucker, are you talking about having like paid sponsorships right now?

[01:00:43] Chuck Carpenter: Like how much drama with Versel that has been And then he is like, well, you know, that was a little rash and how about we both delete our tweets if you want, and then nothing happened, so that got left. So there’s that, that beef there. But Adam, have you ever [01:01:00] traveled with a guitar or banjo?

[01:01:02] Adam Argyle: I’ve driven with guitars and banjos. I have, uh, skateboards and one wheels. I would though I have a hard, I have a hard shell case that would be capable of traveling

[01:01:12] Robbie Wagner: you check it or carry it on?

[01:01:15] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

[01:01:15] Adam Argyle: Well, I think they’d let you carry on a guitar. Right. They’re kind of respectful

[01:01:19] Robbie Wagner: do, but that guy is a dick. Everyone’s like, you took up the entire fucking thing

[01:01:25] Chuck Carpenter: gonna be that

[01:01:26] David East: You get no

[01:01:26] Adam Argyle: class. I’ll be in business. It won’t matter. I’ll be preceded looking at you on my cell phone with my headphones going. Just walk. Just walk on by.

[01:01:33] Robbie Wagner: I brought three

[01:01:34] Chuck Carpenter: I think that’s what

[01:01:35] Robbie Wagner: them at all of it’s,

[01:01:37] Chuck Carpenter: I should upgrade and then I can do whatever I want because I just need it one way. Going to Virginia, I have a banjo that my brother gave me, but it’s right-handed. First of all, I can’t

[01:01:47] Robbie Wagner: Maybe just ship it. Ship it anyway, like just ahead of time. Just ship it ups.

[01:01:53] Chuck Carpenter: I felt like trying to do that was almost worse. Like, what kind of packaging would I have to get? What would it cost? ‘cause it’ll be really [01:02:00] big at that point. Like, pay extra on the airline. You know? I don’t know.

[01:02:04] David East: It sounds like the beginning of a song where like you start your monologue and then Adam starts the.

[01:02:10] Robbie Wagner: I’m getting the vibe that this meeting was not that important and

[01:02:14] Adam Argyle: I told them I’ll be right there. I told ‘em over.

[01:02:17] Chuck Carpenter: do they know this is live streaming right now? They’re all watching it and they’re

[01:02:21] Adam Argyle: Yeah. Yeah. PE Penny is, penny is smart enough to probably know where I am, but it’s, it is gonna be fun. We’re talking about data tables. The A data, a data list, a data. Here, I’m gonna make this relevant, uh, that way when I show up, I’m like, I was just talking with the community about

[01:02:36] Robbie Wagner: the meeting and we’ll just all chat about it?

[01:02:39] Chuck Carpenter: yeah. Can you just like, yeah, exactly. Bring up and

[01:02:42] Adam Argyle: wanna make a proper data list. Like how many or data table, how many times you made a data table. You wanna sort it, you want to, uh, filter it, you want all these kind of headlines. You basically, the table element is great at showing 10 pieces of data as soon as it’s more than 10. It’s a piece of shit.

[01:02:56] Adam Argyle: And we want to fix that. We’d like you to be able to show more than 10 pieces of [01:03:00] data in a meaningful and accessible way that can be paginated, that can be filtered and sorted without a ginormous library, as well as a virtualized list. So that’s what the meeting’s about. Uh, it should be kind of cool, uh,

[01:03:11] Robbie Wagner: nice. Yeah. Let me, let me ask a related question. What does it do if you have a hundred items, you paginate, and you click the next page? Does it scroll to the top?

[01:03:21] David East: It’s virtualized.

[01:03:22] Adam Argyle: I would imagine scrolls to the top. That’s pretty normal for pagination when you click next, but I don’t know, maybe maintain scroll

[01:03:27] Robbie Wagner: because I have that problem in my app at work right now.

[01:03:30] David East: Oh,

[01:03:31] Adam Argyle: do?

[01:03:32] David East: Well

[01:03:33] Chuck Carpenter: whether

[01:03:33] David East: don’t have a

[01:03:34] Chuck Carpenter: up

[01:03:34] Robbie Wagner: like, page two. And it’s like, you’re still at the bottom. And I’m like, well, I can manually scroll it, but like, that sounds gross. Like, yeah,

[01:03:42] Adam Argyle: There’s a great J-S-A-P-I for that. After render. You can just say, scroll to this element or scroll to zero of the data. I mean, that’s not a hard problem to solve, basically, is what I’m

[01:03:51] Robbie Wagner: no, I, I can do it. I feel like I shouldn’t have to.

[01:03:54] David East: you shouldn’t, which you, you know, and I’m about to make your life harder if you want to do this, but I’ve done this before and it, [01:04:00] it was not easy. Uh, I used to work on the fire store console back in the day, and so we had to be able to handle like, you know, whatever amount of records. And so basically, yes, I, what Adam’s talking about would be of great use.

[01:04:10] David East: So having something that’s already virtualized check, you need that. But the thing that’s very difficult is, is no, we, we, we don’t have like pages of data. You can just scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll. And so you chunk, and so you have to do loading chunk, which cursing. And so you have to be like, from here, one to this one.

[01:04:25] David East: And then when you get to a certain intersection of observer, at some point you’re like, okay, it’s time to load the next chunk. And so you kind of have like a, you, your chunk needs to have enough buffer that you’re kind of guessing that, you know, an eager scroller is gonna beat you. You don’t wanna chunk that much to be an eager scroller, but a normal scroller, even like somewhat fast of a scroller, you kind of figure out what your chunk

[01:04:44] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, well, not to throw anyone under the bus, but that was my suggestion and I was told it must be paginated with page numbers, not scrolled.

[01:04:51] David East: Well, you know what?

[01:04:52] Robbie Wagner: And so that throws that out the window.

[01:04:54] David East: You live and you learn and then you get loved.

[01:04:56] Adam Argyle: Oh man. I’m gonna, here’s my spicy take. I’ll, I’ll leave. It is, [01:05:00] I’ve written so many virtualized list views, so many, and still to this day, the best API, and the best one I’ve ever used was by Windows eight on their win JS framework for the Windows eight platform, and it was called the list view. It is seriously still.

[01:05:15] Adam Argyle: And it was made to work on really low performing hardware. The API in it is absolutely delightful. It had multiple ways to integrate with it, but I always went the programmatic way and would just like build my nodes and it would pass you data. It would pass you data. You returned with a template and it would already create a placeholder for you.

[01:05:31] Adam Argyle: It would create skeletons for you. You didn’t have to worry about that shit. It knew, it knew that it wasn’t ready and it was just virtualized, so you could, you could spin it forever on low hardware. And the hardware was just like, I’m not drawing anything. I’m a moron, and you’re going really fast, so I’m not even gonna call the calls that ask to render this thing.

[01:05:46] Adam Argyle: And so then eventually, as it slows down, it decides that it’s in a good state. And it would ask you to render. You would return dom notes, put ‘em right in. Do it was amazing. It could do grouped list views. It could do list views. It could do like lists, like lists. It could do groups. It was [01:06:00] extremely flexible.

[01:06:00] Adam Argyle: And then it also had semantic Zoom says, oh, you could just pinch and see the whole, and dude, anyway, I’m gonna leave that as a spice. I haven’t seen a better list view implementation since then. And honestly, the first time I ever saw React was React saying We can be your infinite list. And I tried it and I, that was the thing I thought it could be the best at in terms of its component model.

[01:06:19] Adam Argyle: And the way that it did virtual dom is I was like, you know what? This is a strong use case for this thing. And then people started building websites with it and I got real pissed. So anyway, and, and then people make, so, oh,

[01:06:29] Robbie Wagner: that’s what you’re gonna plug before we end right? Is uh, win js list view. Anything else you

[01:06:33] Adam Argyle: which list view? Everybody go

[01:06:35] David East: Don’t build sites with react, build it with one Js Li field. That’s what Adam wants you to know.

[01:06:40] Adam Argyle: man. There was so many hot topics we didn’t get to that I wanted to bring up. Like why does JS get all the tooling CSS has or not? Uh, it gets all the money, like there’s millions of dollars

[01:06:48] Robbie Wagner: those are on my list. We should do this again, like honestly next week we’ll talk, but we could do it a part two.

[01:06:54] Chuck Carpenter: we can do a part

[01:06:55] Adam Argyle: All right. All right. Real talk. Alright. I’m gonna go and be responsible. It’s 13 minutes [01:07:00] after

[01:07:00] Robbie Wagner: Cool. Yeah.

[01:07:01] Adam Argyle: spoil. Y’all later. Thanks. I was fine.

[01:07:05] Robbie Wagner: Oh God. Okay.

[01:07:07] Chuck Carpenter: So on that

[01:07:08] David East: that was great. That was

[01:07:09] Robbie Wagner: Is there anything you would like to plug, David, before we end? Is there a podcast that you record at all that

[01:07:15] Chuck Carpenter: no, not at all. Not one you want to hear. I

[01:07:18] David East: no, definitely not bad. If you’re bad at CSS and you want to, and you want to continue to be bad at CSS, then you know, come join the bat at CSS podcast.

[01:07:27] Robbie Wagner: I would say that it’s very like, hopefully you don’t take offense to this, similar to what we do here

[01:07:33] David East: There is no offense

[01:07:34] Robbie Wagner: and that it’s like pretty unstructured. There’s some technical content. But it’s just you and Adam shooting the shit, having fun. It’s very entertaining. I’ve listened to most of them at this point, so

[01:07:45] David East: Every now and then you get like a serious guest done and then you’re like, okay, we get, get this like on rails.

[01:07:51] Chuck Carpenter: Eric. It’s Eric Meyer. We better get it

[01:07:53] David East: Like when Eric and Estelle showed up, you were like, you’re like, okay, all right, here’s the script. And you’re like, actually they [01:08:00] were, they were phenomenal. But yeah, and there was a, there’s a couple more that I have in the hopper and, and that I need to get through that I’m, I’m very excited about.

[01:08:07] David East: We had Miriam Suzanne on the other week, and that was just like an absolute joy. That was one where I was like, put my, my best face on. ‘cause Oh my God, that was like a masterclass,

[01:08:19] Robbie Wagner: yeah. We’re not that serious. I’ve tried to get Brenda Nike on here and he doesn’t reply to me, so

[01:08:24] David East: you know? You gotta, you gotta reach out. You never know that. Every now and then they’re gonna be like, you know what, fuck it. Like, you know, like, let’s do it. So you

[01:08:31] Robbie Wagner: just be persistent.

[01:08:32] David East: Yeah, exactly. So you got whiskey in there. Eventually one person’s gonna be like, well, I do like

[01:08:37] Chuck Carpenter: I do like

[01:08:39] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[01:08:39] David East: like web.

[01:08:40] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. I mean, related to the drama we talked about, we sent Guillermo whiskey and he ghosted us and never came on the podcast.

[01:08:48] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, that’s true. That was uh, how many

[01:08:51] David East: have sent him Nette.

[01:08:52] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, exactly.

[01:08:53] Robbie Wagner: Well, we sent him, he said he liked Japanese whiskey. We sent him a cool one

[01:08:57] David East: good.

[01:08:58] Robbie Wagner: and [01:09:00] he, he was like, actually, I realized you guys maybe shit on React a lot. Like he didn’t say that, but he was like,

[01:09:06] David East: it’s like, I don’t think he would

[01:09:07] Robbie Wagner: I can’t, well, he didn’t even

[01:09:09] Chuck Carpenter: He didn’t say anything. His personal assistance, we went, we went through two personal assistance. That’s how long we tried to make this work with him.

[01:09:17] David East: You didn’t, you didn’t get through my personal assistance.

[01:09:20] Chuck Carpenter: Uh, we did. And uh, it was, it was very immediate. They were like, here’s his social security number, credit card numbers.

[01:09:27] David East: This is what I tell them to do with everyone. I said, listen, anytime anyone asks any questions about me at all, schedule favorite color, just send them all my personal identifiable information. That way I won’t have to put up with all these questions

[01:09:42] Chuck Carpenter: I trust people, you know, they could just find the information about me, my net worth,

[01:09:47] David East: all on the dark web, you know, it’s already out there, you know what I mean? If I gave you my social security number, like do you think that you’re gonna make the effort to impersonate me? You know how much work that’s involved? Like, you know how many packages you need to return to [01:10:00] Amazon that you haven’t done yet, or like emails you need to respond to.

[01:10:03] David East: Like, you’re gonna go out there and pretend to be me. You know, just so like I can freeze my account.

[01:10:10] Robbie Wagner: that are like, oh, your, your data is all out in the leak. I’m like, okay. Like what are they gonna do with it? Like, do you want a lot of debt? Steal my identity?

[01:10:21] Chuck Carpenter: Enjoy.

[01:10:23] David East: someone’s like, we stole his identity and now we have so many problems. He seems to be very happy about

[01:10:27] Chuck Carpenter: do all the credit cards I open get

[01:10:29] Robbie Wagner: like. I could be like my house. I don’t even own that. Like I don’t know who this.

[01:10:34] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, exactly.

[01:10:38] Robbie Wagner: Oh God. Okay. Well we should probably wrap this up. Yeah. For real. Anything else you wanna plug or say before we end or,

[01:10:43] David East: this was awesome. I appreciate you coming, you know, having me on. You know, we, I, I gotta get through our episode too. I, I’ve, I’m way too much of a edit freak to like, just, just to push it. I should do that, but I don’t, I do. I look

[01:10:56] Robbie Wagner: problem. That’s why I like this streaming too, is like [01:11:00] if you’ve streamed it, then people have already seen it in the raw state, so fuck it. Like you don’t have to be extra perfect about like,

[01:11:06] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. It’s only gonna like just be polished on that to a degree,

[01:11:10] David East: know. And here, here I am, and being like, you rebase pushers, like you’re perfectionists. And meanwhile I’m like, my podcast list is piling up. ‘cause I’m like, those cuts just, they need to be just right. Ah, gosh.

[01:11:24] Chuck Carpenter: some reshoots? Is that what you’re saying? We’re gonna have to get in and put on, for continuity sake, put on the same thing. Don’t shave for a few days, whatever

[01:11:32] Robbie Wagner: yeah. We’ll get you guys back next week and we’ll, uh, we’ll have Adam do all the same stuff too. And he’ll have to leave right at the hour and,

[01:11:41] Chuck Carpenter: I’ll come

[01:11:42] David East: know, you could definitely get him for a

[01:11:43] Chuck Carpenter: late. That’ll

[01:11:44] David East: Yeah. With the echo. With the echo as

[01:11:47] Robbie Wagner: Oh, yeah. Yeah. You gotta

[01:11:48] Chuck Carpenter: know how to turn it on and off now so we can have the echo anytime you want.

[01:11:52] David East: Good.

[01:11:53] Robbie Wagner: that’s,

[01:11:54] Chuck Carpenter: Maybe more like this. Do you hear yourself? Oh, how is it? God,

[01:11:57] Robbie Wagner: Don’t do it.

[01:11:58] David East: I thought you were joking.[01:12:00]

[01:12:00] Chuck Carpenter: What about now? Video call

[01:12:02] Robbie Wagner: Adam and the folks at Podcast Royale, if you want your podcasts produced by a nice producer, check out podcast, ro

[01:12:09] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. What about this

[01:12:12] Robbie Wagner: They’re gonna have fun with this one. I,

[01:12:13] Chuck Carpenter: How’s this sound to you?

[01:12:15] Robbie Wagner: What your, your general sound.

[01:12:17] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, I switched to a different

[01:12:19] David East: Yeah, no, you sound great.

[01:12:20] Chuck Carpenter: even better. Maybe this is

[01:12:22] Robbie Wagner: I think.

[01:12:22] Chuck Carpenter: me.

[01:12:23] Robbie Wagner: I think it, it sounds good. I don’t know what it was about the previous one that had a little bit of weird sound.

[01:12:28] Robbie Wagner: Maybe it was just like, it was the UK version. Just, it gotta sound a little weird, but like, sounds good now. No

[01:12:34] Chuck Carpenter: I didn’t have the right accent. Right. Let’s have some fish and chips. I.

[01:12:40] Robbie Wagner: All right. I’m, I’m gonna stop this. Thanks everyone for listening. You liked it. Please subscribe. You’re gonna hear some other shit after this from, eh, whatever. We’re done.

[01:12:48] Outro: You’ve been watching Whiskey Web and Whatnot. Recorded in front of a live studio audience. What the fuck are you talking about, Chuck? Enjoyed the show? Subscribe. You know, people don’t pay [01:13:00] attention to these, right? Head to whiskey.fund for merchant to join our Discord server. I’m serious, it’s like 2% of people who actually click these links. And don’t forget to leave us a five star review and tell your friends about the show. All right, dude, I’m outta here. Still got it.