57: Multi-Page Apps, Prefetch vs Preload, and Web Nostalgia

0:00What's going on, everybody? Welcome to another whiskey-web-n-what-not-with-my-self-robert-way-n-wacker-and-my-cohoes-as-always-charls-william-carpender-the-third- Hello, Robert. Robert's the first of his name. Oh, I don't know. Where do you hail from, Sir Charles? You sound like you're from London. That's as much as I can carry it on. You'd be good if I can do a show and the whole show in an accent, but I don't think it's going to happen this time. I used to be able to do a good accent, but I'm not able to do it very well anymore. Your accent seems to float a bit in and out from Australian to English. Yeah, I'm out of practice. All right. Anyway, so quick plug

1:00before we start, NFT is still out there. Bitsky.com slash ship-shape code. Go check it out. Also, plug ship-shape is a company we work for. Check us out ship-shape.io. We have lots of experience and react and XJS and we're really doing a lot of Astro and Solid now. So if you need any kind of new hot JavaScript apps, hit us up. There's a contact form on there. You can just spam it all day with lots of Russian or stuff we can't read. People like to do that. It's perfect. Yeah, ship-shape.io. I say that in Russian. I have no idea. Yeah, I was watching this little tangent here. We can pour some whiskey while we're selling you this. Shouldn't we talk about the whiskey first?

1:43Well, we will. That's it. But yeah, okay. I was just well, not as specialist. So there was this thing on Twitter. There were there were like, it was a Russian propaganda video about people trying to move to the US. Have you seen that? No. It was like they were on a plane and there were just all these like things where it's like, oh, the people behind you are vegetarian. So we're going to have to take away your meal that has meat in it because it's upsetting them. Like, you know, things about like how America is like so offended by everything. Oh, it was funny. But anyway, all right. What do we got today, Chuck?

2:12Oh, righty. Today's contestant is the wolves signature blend special release by John Buscemi and James Bond. Those are fake names clearly since this is a California whiskey. It's 103 proof. It is distilled craft beer, not a grain mash apparently. So I think that that like beer and whiskey or whatever when they're initially doing the fermentation right there, like kind of similar. So I guess this is that. Yeah. But it's like, I think it's a lot more hops and a lot less grain probably. There's probably hops and corn and the corn is probably similar. Yeah. The idea is it wasn't a mash made for whiskey. It's like a craft beer that's then distilled further.

2:56Yes. So cut with rye whiskey. So it's a mixture of that hop flavored whiskey and a rye whiskey. The beer distilets in this release include whiskey distilled from stout beer aged and used French oak for nine years. Oh, that's a bad whiskey distilled from a California pale ale aged and used French oak barrels for seven years. And then two seven year rye whiskey is aged in new American oak. So that's a heck of a mix. It's very specific. Yeah. I mean, this stuff is very prestigious. Like I think a lot of work goes into this. It's a lot different than whiskey's that you would normally have from what I can see.

3:38Like they say it sells out within minutes on their site every time they put it out. So funny. This one was not because it's from a third party site. You have to say the price reflects. It's difficulty in that way then because it is not inexpensive. I can smell the hops on here. Oh, yeah. I smell a little stout too affected by that. Yeah. It's like an IPA whiskey. All right. We'll see how that goes. So it's got like a PD quality to it, which is probably the hops. Oh, whoa. Yeah. And a little, I don't know, multi kind of like chocolate malt or something to it to me. Yeah. There's the initial hit of like it's somewhat Scotty little smoky little PD. Yeah.

4:22And then yeah, like the finish is very, very happy. Yeah. I got a lot of hops in my mouth now. It's almost like you probably haven't done this because you know, it's illegal in Virginia, if you have an edible, you know, the pounds a little bit of that. Arigewana in it. And then you, you like taste the edible and then you taste a little bit of lingering something. That's what hops remind me of. Yeah. It's a similar smell and taste, I would say. A little bit, a little bit of wood, a little bit of spice in there too. But definitely like, yeah, this musty. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Can you taste that French oak?

5:04Just the used one I can tell that this oak is definitely was used. Yeah. It's got that used quality to it. Yeah. It's actually pretty smooth though. Once you kind of have a second of it. I feel like just reading that thing of the four different things they mixed together showed like how much science is in this mix. It's not something that I would gravitate towards as my favorite because I hate hops. Hate them. But it's not bad. I'm not like, oh, I hate it so much I can't drink it. I like the way they've used the hops. It's not super overwhelming. So, yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting for the price point.

5:46I don't know that it's like, I wasn't super blown away by this being different other than there's like a little bit of hops to it. So, yeah, I'm going to say let's give it a six. I feel like that's generous. I mean, it is unique. So, I'm going to say that. And I can see this being very appealing to like the craft beer types that also do a little bit of whiskey. It's just kind of blending some of their love together. So, I think it's interesting and it's worth trying given the way that they described it. Yeah, it's a little pricey to like get in the door for that, but obviously it's complicated.

6:18So, there's that around it, although high west, the guy who originated high west, he was a chemist and they like moved over and used a lot of like chemical property things to blend their whiskeys together. So, you know, I can see where science gets involved here. Yeah, it's interesting. I can't say I would like reach for it regularly, but maybe it's a little better than like scotches for me personally in general. So, it's like lighter on those flavors. I'm going just five though. Because if I'm going down that path, I tend to like some Japanese whiskeys better. Yeah, that's fair. A little more smoke than peat kind of thing.

6:55I honestly just like raised it up due to the like price point and notoriety of it. I don't know. Yeah, I mean succumb to five is fair, but I'm going to stick with six, I think. And I realized while you were talking that we kind of just rate stuff and we don't explain the system. So, if anyone happens to be listening to this as the only episode that listened to for some reason, it's a out of eight tentacles. So, it's not out of ten like these things aren't super bad. These are decent. Yeah, I guess they feel like you, yeah, if you haven't heard another episode before, then you will definitely be confused.

7:33Yeah. And so, in an effort to reduce confusion, I will try to describe said scale each time. So, five means above average, because of its uniqueness and it doesn't taste bad. But I'm not like, whoa, this is great. You have got to go and get this right now. Like, hey, you have a chance to try it, get a dram at a bar or something like that. I could see that as a thing by the whole bottle. I don't know. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah. So, let's talk about multi-page apps. Multi-page apps. I love this whole thing where there's like the latest thing, multi-page apps, just kidding. Were you around in 1998 when the internet was first blowing up?

8:18You were also on a multi-page app. It was just served by different technologies. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's, they describe it really well in the Astro docs. It's like to the effect of, this is the same as all server rendered apps have always been. It's just the server rendered technology has now changed to be JavaScript based versus like PHP or whatever you might have used in the past. So, it's, there's less friction to it to where it's like the same as if you were developing a next JS app, let's say, in the sense of like you import things and you write normal JavaScript and whatever. But then your output gets all server rendered. So, it's like it's the best of both worlds and the developer ergonomics standpoint and then also shipping those like classic multi-page apps.

9:07Yeah. So, basically technology and machines have become more powerful. And so, we can start to look at, hey, can this big powerful machine over here as the server do a little more for us instead of like shipping all these things and asking the clients or the users for outer to parse through all that and do all that for us. Like, we're like, well, let's use the big machine. Yeah. And then give you just a little bit and then start to look at like how networks have improved and caching things have improved and all of that kind of stuff to even take it further now that didn't exist 20 years ago when people started going down this path.

9:48Yeah. And when people started doing this single page app type of thing, it was the case that if you shipped it to the browser first, usually your personal machines were much more performant than whatever was rendering server side. So, it was like just ship everything over and then like let it happen locally, which made a lot of sense. But now like compute power is so cheap that it's just like let's just do it elsewhere and people are realizing, okay, we have this thing that's wrapped in tons of JavaScript. And it does give us some nice things, but also like we don't use it on 90% of our things like most of it is static HTML and styles. And then, you know, we want to have these little things of interactivity in spots, which is like perfect for just throwing in a solid JS component or something.

10:37And that makes a lot more sense than making your entire app like needing to have a link component and needing to have like a special drop down components of using a select and like all this stuff that like people are used to with react just do it with, you know, the normal HTML standards and then it's accessible to. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, just HTML is actually pretty good and it feels like people getting into the industry these days aren't getting exposed to it enough at first. I mean, I learned HTML because what was it like maybe I think I had like a geo city site or something like crazy like that, but I wanted to update and change and add content to and so I had to learn all the HTML tags to do that.

11:21But then now you just create and custom components and we're losing a lot of context around what you know the HTML was and its intended purpose and it's interesting because it was like so much of a fight for like semantic document structure and then JSX was kind of like like sort of yeah, would you like this to look much worse here you go, which like a lot of divs or fragments perfect, we got those. Yeah, I mean, I saw a tweet the other day that was like I forget the exact wording, but there's something to the effect of someone that was like a senior or architect level react developer was asked an interview to like not use a material design framework or something and then they weren't able to close an input tag.

12:07Yep, or something like they just didn't understand how that worked, it was like, oh my God, that an input doesn't have children and yeah, it was an open book test and they weren't able to find the answer by googling either. Oh, was it, did you read about that too? I did. I thought I even shared it, but I don't know. Maybe you did. I don't know. I don't know. A lot of the things you share, I also stumbled upon on Twitter. So yeah, remember that site stumble upon I do yes. That was a scary thing. We can circle back to that. Okay, that sounds very what now. Yeah, so I think the first thing here is why didn't they come up with a better acronym for multi page apps.

12:48They should have been more creative because you have spa for single page and then you have mupa for multi. Lumpa do buddy do they could have done like rearranged it and made it amp, but I guess amp is already a thing or like Pam or mapped or something. Yeah, or the character from the office like, yeah, this is why you're not in marketing. No, I can't do marketing campaigns, but I can make sure like I know stuff is good when I see it. So you can identify quality. Yeah, I don't know if that's a career track though. No, no, I don't think it is unfortunately. Yeah, you're like, oh, I see react. I don't like it. Everybody loves it. Nope. See, there you go. You're bad.

13:32Yeah, I still really want to have that guy on that like says the only thing react is good at is being popular that he never responded to me. I wish I knew his name. I should call him out in every episode until someone who knows him can get him on here. Yeah, that's true. Well, anyways, tell us about the good parts. I guess we've kind of been talking about the good parts. Let's talk about the bad parts though. What's wrong with it? Well, it's wrong with the old way. Yeah, I'll just go down down my list here because I don't want to get confused. So the big advantage or advantages to multi-page apps are your initial loading time is much faster.

14:05So there's no little to no JavaScript to parse. So you kind of load your page and it just loads that little part of your app whereas like a single page app frequently you're loading all of the JavaScript for your entire app. Like we got in better at that now where you're not, but it originally was like here's your, you know, however many megabytes of JavaScript depending on how big your app is and just wait for that to parse. That's going to be like three seconds, four seconds, five seconds. I mean, really bad cases, you're up to like 10 seconds on some things. So that's a huge hit to your initial load, but it's like it's more around, you know, the way apps would work on your phone, right? You have that really big download to start and then it's like nice and fast and snappy and has animations and does cool stuff.

14:50So that was kind of the appeal is like you can. So one of the things you don't have in a multi-page app is a nice page transition animations. So there are a lot of browser APIs coming out for like the, I forget what they are. I think it's actually called like page transitions API or something like that sounds about right. Very logical. And then there's like a shared elements, something. So there's two different ones. One is like the thing you're used to in a spa where it's like, fade my whole page out, fade it back in. The other one is like the shared elements thing is you can say my nav bar is shared like make sure that fades or stays as part of the app and we don't have to like re render that nav bar for every page.

15:35So you can do smart stuff there. So once browsers fix that that gets rid of one of the advantages of a single page app. And then routing in a multi-page app is another thing that's like it just works right because the browser knows how to render pages at different spots. So it's just finding that HTML file and serving it to you versus like hijacking that whole process and needing to figure out how to the back and forward buttons work and how do we like fake a render when like a page changes. And then for an accessibility standpoint, you have to announce that the pages have changed because they didn't really change. You just like click to thing and it loaded some more stuff, but it's not a new page.

16:15So like there's a lot of stuff that like comes back to bite you there. You basically have a hack like the native browser API is and you've got to mess with like history and push a different URL in there. Even though like you didn't actually change a directory structure, which is what is supposed to reflect and yeah all kinds of things like that. Yeah, so basically the gist is whenever you can remove some hacks that we put in because the thing didn't work how we wanted and replace it with just the way browsers work natively. You're going to get better performance, better accessibility, better long term support and none of this stuff is necessarily supported forever.

16:54And then you know, it's just a better place to be in because then you can sprinkle little bits of like weirdness or cool animations or stuff on top. And that's easier to swap out if it becomes not supported or there's a better thing versus your whole app is written and react you need to like rewrite it all in the next hot framework. Right. Yeah, yeah, rethink it again and go back to the drawing board. Hey, how about we don't think it again. Yeah, simplify it. Yeah, and the thing that they kind of got us down this path for this episode for this topic here was I had just been curious because I didn't actually really know the difference between like pre fetch and pre load.

17:37So you probably seen those on things like you have a link with rel equals pre fetch or pre load and it's to load some things. But no one ever really explains like what do you use when because a lot of these that's one of the advantages to the single page apps is these frameworks will just add that stuff for you because they're like all right. I know on your homepage you got a link to these five other pages. So we want to go ahead and start the loading for those other pages as soon as we can so that even though our first initial load is really bad whenever you're moving around everything feels really seamless because we've already loaded everything for all the other pages.

18:12So a lot of times I looked at our site now in nuts and it actually uses pre load which is the more heavy handed one and the way that I understood it is pre load is like it's high priority stuff in your critical path. And it's guaranteed like it's basically a fetch like go fetch this thing. So it's just kicking off that request and it just starts like as part of it prioritizes itself similarly to the content to load the page you're on now. So it's like part of that huge waterfall. It's not going to block your page necessarily but it's like going to be loaded as part of that load time. So it's going to mess a little bit with your like time to interactive potentially depending on what you're loading.

18:55Whereas pre fetch is a low priority hint that's just telling the browser okay you might go to one of these pages here in a minute like are you're on the home page or maybe going to go to the about page in a little bit. So like whenever you're cool with it browser and you have some time and free cycles go load this stuff like it's not super important but just grab it whenever you get a chance. So that is better for like imagine someone is like on some really bad 3G network somewhere and you have pre loads on every page on your site. It's going to be loading that stuff forever because it's saying these are just one to one fetches and it's got to do them. It's not an optional thing.

19:36So that's going to cause them to have a long loading time. It's going to use a lot of data if people have like low amounts of data on their plans. It's going to use a lot more data from your server like if you have some kind of cap on how much you can ship from your server or something to it's just very heavy handed. So they recommend you use pre load only for critical path stuff like if you know I'm going to switch pages and I want a couple of styles or images for like that first block of that page to definitely load because there's what they're going to hit first and everything else can be prefetch or something.

20:12All that to say multi pay daps don't have any of that out of the box. So there is a astro package for it, which interestingly doesn't show up in integrations anymore for some reason did the other day. So I'm hoping they're not getting rid of it. But I can still find it on GitHub and it basically just allows you to put rel equals prefetch on like all of your anchor tags and it will automatically kick off those requests. So going to be trying that out and we're almost done with our astro rewrite of our site. So I'm going to going to be doing some last benchmarks of our existing site that's indexed get those numbers then do some benchmarks of the astro site as it is play around with that.

20:58Then do the pre fetch and see like what our second page load times become see what there's a big improvement or not from that. I wouldn't imagine it's too crazy. It's probably just like if you pre fetch some images, it would probably help, but like the amount of HD amount stuff we have is minimal. Yeah, I would think it'd be more about like, you know, the big header images or something like that, like having. Yeah. Maybe if you had customized fonts or something on certain pages that didn't initially load, maybe something like that would be helpful. I can see like basically anything that's in your immediate view pane that could have a weird flash of content or something you might want to try to pre fetch, but aside from that.

21:42So those you would want pre load though, because then you can guarantee it's not going to load that page until your fonts ready. Right. Like it holds up the yeah, the on ready event, whereas pre fetch doesn't. Yeah. Okay. So the yeah, and that way you avoid the flash of unstyled content kind of thing. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, the transitions don't really bother me as much, but I know some people are like, wait, I'm used to this. I don't really want to lose it. Yeah. For other other reasons, but maybe one big pro or con to the other is state management essentially. So when you're thinking about multi page app and not like a multi page site.

22:26And in a lot of time, there's some like state that goes along with that. Right. And then you want to have to be constantly fetching a state. I mean, you could two degree and if you're backing it with an API that's well cast or something else where you could have. I don't know local database strategies or local storage strategies to sort of use for that. But that's probably like at least the thought paradigm there. Right. Yeah. It's completely different. You don't have some state management library that you're reaching for that you used to using right in the former, I think. Yeah. I mean, state management, I think, is a hotly debated topic anyway. Like we used to have this kind of idea of everything can kind of be global if you want it.

23:09It doesn't really matter. It doesn't have to be immutable and then react came in with like redux and stuff and was like, no, no, no, everything is transactional. It's all immutable. Like you can't ever change your state. Yeah. I think we've kind of backtracked a bit from that now. But yeah, I think depending on your mental model around state in general. Yes, you would need to find a library or a philosophy that you agree with to manage your state. Something I probably should have written up here, but we can research that more and talk about that another time because I don't know of what might work in multi-page apps.

23:45Yeah. I mean, I would think that like index db or something like that is starting to get more pervasive and powerful. And so something like that could just be like, great. Let's just do you use local databases and write and draw from that. Yeah. Like you could probably use orbit. I don't know how it would work. Like making sure the orbit scripts were loaded on every page. You're shaking your head a lot. I guess because it's Jason API. Yeah. Yeah. There's that for start. And it's really, I don't know. I mean, maybe maybe there's still I mean, it's it's really complex. Right. And we're talking about reducing complexity.

24:22True. But then again, this is an app and there are certain things in memory that do need to work a particular way when we're talking about an app versus just a normal site, an informational site. Yeah. What I was getting at was like some library that is capable of using index db or something locally. But then also periodically sinking that to your real API or whatever. Yeah. Like some background sinking, which is yeah, which is kind of nice because again, your app is going to need persistency at some point. Yeah. And not just when you like click form buttons. I don't know. Yeah. We'll have to make that a topic for another episode of all the different ways to do that.

25:07Because I know Astro has some examples of like what if you wanted to add a cart to your app, right? And that's your only thing that kind of needs state or JavaScript at all. Yeah. Okay. Well, like I think they have examples around that. So we'll have to look at them more. I think in a really interesting example in that paradigm would be to do an admin app, right? You have that like tables and forms essentially in its entity management and then authentication, which obviously you can layer in from a lot of different places. Like I think that would be a really good example in use case for like here it is a multi page, not site, but a multi page app. Here's the app. Here's what a lot of apps do.

25:49They listen to these. They edit them. They create them. Let's try and do that. So the swatch admin app is going to be the first trial. I mean, it could be. I think if you were able to come so like a really popular package is called react admin. And you know, we love or hate it. I've had mixed experiences with it. It is really easy to spin up and then give it some information about your entities and then like fetch those and stuff. And then it just works. It just gives you that it's like cool log in lists of users lists of whatever lists of colors pallets for the like the splash thing. And it just work. If you just follow its way and be unopinionated, it actually just worked pretty well.

26:35And so if you were able to do that with some other technologies and prove like, yeah, here's here's that pretty simple. And it's using these like really fast proven basic technologies. Yeah, I would have to look into what react admin gives you because you would just have to build the kind of interactive bits and some kind of real framework like we wouldn't use react because. So we would either use pre act or solid JS or something of that nature something that's smaller and faster and yeah isn't made by Facebook. Metta whatever they're still Facebook. They just changed their name to met us so that they can go out of business and stop using react.

27:17I'm not sure, but what is your opinion on this react framework? It's very unclear to me. Oh, it's great. Yeah, perfect. Love it. Everything you ever wanted. I think I would add a addendum to the only thing it's good at is being popular as it's also good at like changing people's minds and pushing the story forward of like technology. So like it's done good things in terms of that. Yeah, but I don't think it's ever been like the thing I would reach for. It's just the thing that like everyone knows and has replaced their basic HTML knowledge, which is not great for anyone. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely changed the paradigms of how some things are done for better or worse than many opinions on all sides about that.

27:59So I think that is interesting. And there's a lot of really smart people that are involved in the community that are doing interesting things with it. Then our convinced that like it is a good way to do things. So yeah, that's also interesting to me sometimes because you know, you see both sides of the coin. And maybe that's like some more questions that we have for guests in the future too, which is sort of like what are you seeing as like the biggest values here and why not this other thing. Well, I do wonder if some of the people who see a lot of value and react aside from the hiring side or the it's what people know kind of argument.

28:37If they're similar to me on the inverse side where it's like it's what I'm used to. It's what I have tons and tons of like a decade of knowledge in. So I'm super productive in it. I think it's the best tool because of that. Like do they experiment with the new stuff and go and still go, oh, solid JS is not good because react does XYZ and solid doesn't. Or do they not touch the new stuff? Like I would be interested in that because I think it's more of the former or I forget which I said when they don't touch the new stuff is I think the problem. Yeah, I mean, if you were approaching Amber today, would you feel the same way? It's hard to say. Yeah, right because you just highly biased based on that time effort and and the things that have clicked for you.

29:22Yeah, and it's a I'm going to have a hot take here and I'm sorry for all of our Ember listeners who are here to listen to me talk about good things about Ember. But the new add on V2 stuff is some bullshit. It is like how can I configure infinite web pack and roll up and all these things like we've been avoiding doing for years. Is now what you have to do in the name of like creating correct JavaScript and it's all like, oh, well, we want it to be the same as the rest of the community. We want you to be able to import it normally and like have all these build tools work and it's like, but wait a minute, why?

29:58Because I'm going to be using this add on in an Ember app, not a react app or something else. So why does it matter? Like, yes, it might help tree shaking or like a couple of things there where you get a little bit smaller app or okay, I get you. But most of the apps that Ember powers are like huge dashboards and stuff where you don't care as much. So it's like, it feels like a huge developer experience hit because I used to be able to go like, Ember install this thing and it would run blueprints. It would set up configs for me. It would do all the magic to where all I do is like install it and use it.

30:35And that's the big selling point of Ember or has been. And now it's like, okay, well, instead of Ember install, you're going to do a normal NPM or yarn or PNPM or whatever install. There's going to be no magic config. Blueprints won't work. You can put your files anywhere now because you're importing everything. And there's no like magic. This is a components folder and it just works because these are components or like all the magic is gone to where the only thing that's familiar is like the handlebar syntax and like, you know, stuff you used to there. But the entire like, I'm going to have to spend weeks at a time in webpack and roll up and stuff I hate now because someone thought that was a good idea.

31:14So rant over, but this is not the hot take is that this isn't the first time you've mentioned this once before. I feel like the changes in that API have come up before. And yeah, I mean, at a certain point, like if you disenfranchise a bunch of people who are contributors, like long term contributors and you make it hard for them to update 30 add-ons. And at some point, impossible, then they're just going to say I'm not updating this anymore. Yeah. And see you later. Yeah. I mean, I know for a fact that Chris Manson and I maintain probably half the add-ons that exist, which sounds like a lot. Yeah. And it is a lot. And I think neither of us are huge mono repo fans or fans of V2 add-ons or fans of forcing embroider on everyone when it's not ready and half the add-ons don't work.

32:10So, you know, that being said, maybe we should have some more say. And now it's like, or of course, there's the alternative where the people that are pushing these changes come in and help everyone update their add-ons. But they aren't doing that so far. Oh, well, so this is a question for the court team, essentially, right? I mean, who's fostering these changes along? Well, yeah, I don't really know. I haven't been to the meetings in a while. So I don't really know how things are getting pushed or what the dynamic is there because they change the meeting time. And it's like during meetings I have for clients like all the time.

32:49So I haven't been in months and months and months. So all I kind of do is keep Ember Inspector a float, like merge a few things and I haven't updated our add-ons in a really long time. I was at the weird in-between part where I got everything embroider compatible but didn't do V2 add-ons or mono-repos or the big new new push. And that stuff is hard. I've been doing that for a new add-on I'm working on. Shout out to Nulvox because he has been really helping me with all of that because he understands that and knows how it all works. Yeah, so what you're saying is he should just take over all of your add-ons.

33:31I'm not going to put that on him. But yeah, I mean, I think there are people that like it, especially people that have had more exposure to other frameworks and want some of the nice things they have and want it to be more normal. But for those of us who have done Ember for 10 years and it's supposed to be magic, I would much rather, even if there's more steps now, right? Okay, so the components can now be in like source slash my folder slash other things slash components slash wherever I want it to be, right? Okay, cool. That's fine. I want to still ship my magic blueprints. I just want you to now tell me like where's the folder this thing is in so that I can know where to go edit it or whatever.

34:12Like there should be some in between where it's not just you lose all possible magic. There should be like configurable magic where some people get it or if you do something differently, you don't get it. Like the opinions of Ember are the big selling point of like you don't have to think about where stuff goes or what you how you do certain things and now you do. Yeah, yeah, I see. I mean backwards compatibility essentially what you're saying is, okay, if you want to go to different direction, but can we look at not breaking everything I've done for whatever 510 years. Yeah, it's a weird setup because it is backwards compatible. Like there's a add on V1 shim or something.

34:54And it basically ships it to normal ember apps that aren't using embroidery and stuff works how it used to with the magic and stuff, but. And I think part of the problem here is just like I've tried to adopt all the new hotness for fun because I'm like, oh, I'm making a new add on like let's do it. But like they're like, no, no, it's not all ready yet. Like you don't have to use it now. You can use the normal add-ons or whatever. And all of the magic will continue to work, I think through ember 4, like they won't drop it. Like to totally to embroider and you have to be 100% compatible until like ember 5 probably so right.

35:30So yeah, part of it is my fault, but I just like to rant about stuff. You guys know people have listened to this before. Yeah, you're very angry, very angry man. Yeah, we're changing this to Robbie hates that is the name of the podcast. Robbie, raw. Anyway, let's let's not talk about tech anymore. Okay, I'm done with tech. Reload prefetch. I still don't know what it is, but whatever. It's loading it earlier. Use one or the other. Yeah, load it some sooner or later. Anticipate your users news. So what did you stumble upon? Gosh, I don't remember, but I do remember using that site and like finding it very enjoyable where you'd like look at something and then start stumbling upon other sites that would get tagged similarly.

36:17So yeah, yeah, that was cool. Yeah, I don't remember. Did it have like a, could you like safe search it? I feel like a lot of people got a lot of not safe for work stuff on stumble upon. Right, I think you could. I think you could kind of put a filter on and okay, whatever else. Yeah, I mean, I remember the days like, I'm trying to think when I first, I got a computer. I didn't get a computer of my own until college. I'm trying to remember which thing came first, my laptop or my gateway computer in like a cow box. Oh, gateway. Do they still exist? I don't think so. But you know, and then you're just like, Oh, cool. Let me look up a website.

36:59And then you're like, I want to look at more websites, but I don't know where they're at because Ask Gives doesn't know. And yeah, things like stumble upon kind of coming up and just making it cool where you can like just look up things about topics you're interested in or like this site stumble on the similar ones. Yeah, kind of like dig was like the early, we should make another stumble upon that would be kind of funny. And I remember how like dig was basically like an early Reddit. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I thought about making a new Myspace. But I don't know that anyone would use it other than like, it's for the nostalgia factor.

37:34I think that's like the only reason. But like, oh gee, my Myspace style. Because it's like turned into some like music site or something, right? Oh, yeah. It's just for bands now because Justin Timberlake bought it. But like, I think there was a lot of cool stuff there. It would just, it's not ADHD enough for kids today. But like, it was better about you would didn't have as much infinite content to scroll. It was like got like my dashboard. I can respond to my messages. There's like, I think it had like five things in like the feed. I forget like post the people had done recently. Because I remember if you like just kept reposting, it would like move you to the top.

38:13So people would do that a lot. And like, it was just cool because it wasn't as like, addicting and like, meant to ruin your life. It was just more fun. And it was also like, you could go in and put, you know, whatever styles you want over everything, which was cool. Like, I think something where people could experiment with web development while also being like social and like, whatever. And like, then you could really show off like, you know, similar to, I guess like, code pin kind of does that where it's like, here's a thing I made. But like more showcased as part of like, a real social platform versus like,

38:49like more social geared than tech geared, but like some of both. I can see that like in a way of like, it was cool. In a way where it mishmashed a bunch of different things together, right? People could comment on your personal site. You could customize it. So it was almost like the geocities thing there where you could like do some of your own customization and add your own stuff. And then like, you were connected together. You add friends. So there's like a thread of links that you can connect through. I don't know. It would be kind of interesting. I can see where it might appeal to some people.

39:26Yeah. I don't mind that one of them. But there is kind of like, there's not that thing now. Right? Where you can go and have a personal page. Everything is like TikTok or TikTok clones. Yeah. That's just consuming. That's not making. Yeah. It's all about how can I have like the flashiest video that's like really short. Like everyone wants to scroll infinitely through content like that. And I just don't like that. Back in my day, we had to actually look for stuff on the internet. You couldn't just scroll every video. Yeah. Exactly. I can remember I learned HTML from CNET or something. Some site like that where they had a whole section where it was like,

40:14learn HTML. Cool. I want to learn all these tags. The CNET actually do anything. Like, I thought CNET was the site you go to to download fake stuff and get viruses. Is that not the one I'm thinking of? I don't think so. That's not the one I'm thinking of. Also, you'll be happy to know Gateway's site is copyright 2015. Yeah. So they kind of still have a site they have drivers and support and stuff, but they don't have anything about like we'll sell you a computer. So I think they exist like a little bit for people to have an old computer to like fix it. Yeah. Have like a brand. Oh, yeah. CNET you could actually like download software there too for a while.

40:53Yeah. Cause I would always look for stuff to download before it was like easy to get stuff to download with app stores and whatever. Yeah. And then it would be like CNET would be one of the results and I would be like, this is a virus. And then you would download it and it would be like, yeah, you're right. I'm a virus. So it's like, yeah. It was never the file you actually wanted. No, no. Yeah. I don't know. CNET like, what is it anymore, but it exists. So there's that I guess. And you used to do like tech articles and all kinds of things. It's just like all kinds of things. Is it dumping ground for stuff?

41:27Yeah, dumping ground for tech things and then just keep growing and growing and then now they just have download.com, which feels like not where I'm going to go to get any software whatsoever for my computer. You know? Yeah. Yeah. My favorite is anytime you go to one of those sites too, even if the download is legit, there is like 15 ads with download buttons in like strategic spots trying to get you to download the wrong thing, which is crazy. Like my mom would always click the wrong ones. Of course. And then be like, I have like 15 programs. I don't know what they are. And they like keep popping up and like my computer slowed.

42:07I'm like, yeah. Yeah. That's because you downloaded all this stuff. Yeah. You did the bad thing. So your mom is definitely one of those then that probably falls prey to some of the IRS calling her and telling her to that she has a bill to pay and she needs to go and get some gift cards to pay it. Visa gift cards. Not that far. No. No. I've told my parents that if anyone calls you or texts you and wants you to do anything, don't be like, okay, where are you from? Like get some information. All right. I'm from the IRS. Okay. Cool. Who do you work for? Because then if it's legit, you can find them.

42:47So then anytime someone is like, I'm Amazon. You have like your delivery is lost. What's your password and made name or like, you know, like that stuff you they hopefully ignore. I think the only thing my mom fell for was she just didn't they don't people don't know that like the first three things on Google are always ads, right? So like she was having problems with her computer and she searched what that was like doing the right things to talk them to search for it and try to figure it out and like whatever. And it was like something Microsoft and she went to one of those links thinking it was the actual

43:20Microsoft. And it wasn't right. And then it was like, yeah, go on our like online chat and like pay us a hundred bucks and we'll like fix your computer. And then it's like, oh, cool. Like download team viewer and give me full access to your computer to control it. And my mom called me like, wow, the guy is clicking around her computer and goes, hey, I didn't think I might have messed up. Like I probably shouldn't let this guy control back if you're right. And I was like, no, just turn it off and don't turn it back on for a while. So he like gives up and doesn't look for the node to show up. Yeah.

43:52Yeah. Yeah. So that was fun. But usually they're pretty good. They they recognize that most things are a scam. Any email you get is probably fake. Like just go to the real website and whatever. Yeah, exactly. Confirm it on the real website. Oh, give me your number. I'll call you back. Perfect. Yeah. Turns out the IRS doesn't have like a one call system. Well, that's it. You're fine. That's exactly how that works. Yeah. Hmm. Interesting. Yeah. I don't know of my mom ever falling prey to any of those things, but she kind of ignores the world. So never opens an email. Doesn't answer my calls. I don't know.

44:30It's not just me. I guess. Well, that's good. You see your mom at the lake. I did. Yeah. We were down there for about a week, I guess, trying to think what we went. Yeah. Here's a week. We went down to see Caitlin's mom. She came up for South Carolina to meet us because she had not met Finn yet. Oh, wow. Yeah. Well, there we go. Have a big occasion. Yeah. So they came up for a couple days. And other than that, we were. We went to this restaurant. We really liked the landing because it's like. It's fancy for the lake. Like it's not what I would consider a real fancy restaurant, but. One of the fancy places you can go there, right?

45:14So it's like, they actually have a real wine list and they have like some interesting foods and whatever. And we like, because you can boat there. So we always have a date night when we're down there and just leave Finn and the dogs with my parents and. Go do that. And I would do that every day. Like it's so good because it's like nicer food than you would get usually in the area. And it's like free because it's not up here. So it's like half the price you would pay up here. And I'm like, oh, my God. This is so affordable. It's enough free, necessarily. But. Well, yeah, yeah. Quite a bit less expensive.

45:47Yeah. Then, yeah, then. Like we can get a whole bottle of wine and split it. Two appetizers, two entrees and two desserts and it's like 150 bucks. Nice. So nice. Like 150 bucks is not necessarily a small amount of money for dinner, but for all that, it is. Yeah. How many bottles of wine included? No. Buy one, get one free. Oh, no. It's just one. Fair enough. But yeah. So we enjoyed that and went to the Mexican place a couple of times. The Mexican restaurant like five minutes from Marley Coss by boat. So we went across there and they have, of course, the huge margaritas that are like irresponsibly strong.

46:29So had a few of those and then they put you back on a boat. That is irresponsible. Yeah. Well, I mean, boat is safer than a car, right? It kind of floats. You don't have lanes. You can just kind of make it back. It's a little different. I think the police might disagree with my statement. But the police listened to this podcast and don't announce what Lake you are. I actually met one of my previous bosses at that Mexican place one time. And he and his friends had each had like two or three of those giant margaritas where I have one and I'm like passed out for a couple hours when I get home. And so they had all had two or three each and someone had to drive the boat back.

47:07I was like, you guys are dead. Like you're not making it back. They made it back. But right. All three. Yeah, they made it back. But because there aren't lanes or anything else. Maybe that it was traffic hard to say. That's funny. Yeah, that is a lot more exciting than my weekend was or week. Oh, yeah. What did you do mostly just hung out like Saturday was just around the house. I did actually my son for the first time helped me wash the car. I got one of those phone guns. So you can do like the scrubless wash with the phone. And that was pretty cool. He was like jazzed to use the pressure washer and shoot foam all over the place.

47:45Nice. So you don't have to touch it at all. It's like powerful enough to spray stuff off. Yeah. So pressure washer in general is powerful enough to get a lot of whatever off. I had a lot of dust from doing a little off road a couple of weeks ago. And that was due to get that off anyway. So you just kind of spray it over all to get like debris off and then use the foam. Which then just kind of like works away all the dirt. And then you rinse that so you don't have to get out like a sponge or whatever. And just let the foam do the work for you and spray that off and then dry it. Yeah. That was fun.

48:20Yeah. I'm always scared of using a pressure washer though. Like if you do it too close or too powerful when you like rip your paint off. I know. I think he would be have to be pretty serious. So if you have to really try. I just have an electric pressure washer. It's like PSI is I think like 1200 max. And you can adjust that and whatever and the distance. So yeah, that was fun. Hang out. And then for whatever reason the next day I decided some more hard work was in my future. The kids have a playhouse and there's a porch in the front. And there's a deck up like because it has like two levels on the inside.

48:58And then there's like a little deck that they can go out on to and then slide down. And then all over the last few years like that's been breaking down with the weather and all that kind of stuff. So the paint's coming off and you know some spunters and whatever else in my brother and I get out there for a few hours. And sanded it with like a rotary sander and a regular sander. Not exciting. Not fun. So using tools is kind of fun. But a few hours in. I was like, why did I decide this? Yeah. I think I've just gotten to the point where like I have so much stuff to do that everything feels exhausting to where it's like I used to love stuff like that.

49:36Like give me like a couple hours to paint something or do whatever like a little bit like I don't want to do that for my livelihood. But like I want a little project to work on. Yeah. Now it's just like anything I have to do I don't want to do it. I just want to skip it all. Nice. Like some manual labor. It's almost meditative to like do some things and just zone out and use your body and not your mind and. Yeah. Oh, that was nice. It was a break. Mowing is nice. But I hired people to mow because it was taking me like two or three hours to mow it all. Yeah. And I don't know the time for that. No.

50:11The diminishing returns of the value of your time. They'll say at a certain point. Yeah. It's actually cheaper to hire it out. Yeah, they're also going to do all of our landscaping, which I'm excited for. Very cool. Yeah, I got us, you know, coming and enjoy your land at some point before you decide to move yet again. That happens every eight to 18 months. I think we're honestly going to be stuck for a little bit. Like the ideal thing is if real estate prices could stay really high for a little bit and we can sell really high. Then we'll just like figure it out from there. Like if we have to go live at the lake for a while or whatever, that's fine.

50:49Yeah. I feel like if we wait to sell for like a year or two, everything will get more reasonably priced. And it won't be as fun and you won't make as much money. Yeah. So yeah. I don't know. I mean, we're working towards getting things ready. We're going to have our bathrooms renovated pretty soon, like next week. And then we have like some, some like patching and painting to do like minor things. But we'll hopefully be ready to list it within the next couple months, I think. So we'll see. Okay. Yeah, it could be interesting, I guess. Now that's the problem is if you're selling now to try and buy right away then opting into a much higher interest rate and some challenges.

51:32Well, we're not trying to buy right away. We just want to list soon to see if someone with a giant bag of cash wants to give us a lot of money. If not, we'll chill and like wait a little while, but I wouldn't want to miss out on the giant bag of money if it's coming. It's hard to say. Yeah. I keep opening my bank account looking for a giant bag of money and then it's like it doesn't show up. Yeah. I mean, right now I have some money in mind, but that's just because I haven't paid for my Bronco yet. So there you go. There's a what not topic for the future customized Broncos electric cars. What's going on in the future?

52:11California has a thing where what all cars sold in California, but 2035 or something have to be electric. Just interesting. I thought it was even earlier. It's like the 2030 thing like everybody's doing. It's like everything is supposed to be maybe it's 2035. I just thought California was more aggressive. I thought that was like the US wide was like 2035. Oh, my California friend told me 2035. Hmm. I don't know. Huh. Well, then the US year must just be late enough that everyone's dead from climate change and we don't care that much about it. Yeah. It's mostly what it is. If we make it another channel, be surprised.

52:51Yeah. I mean, Putin's going to nuke us all anyway. Right. There you go. He's going to nuke something in Ukraine and then whatever happens after that will be terrible. Because it's either we're going to nuke something back or we're going to bitch out and do nothing, which will make us look weak and he'll nuke more stuff. Like someone's going to ultimately nuke a lot of stuff unless we can stop him. So what you're saying is ship shape should pivot to fall out shelters. Yeah. To their coming back. Yeah. There's another shout out at this. I did see that Elon Musk tweeted like contemplating ways to deescalate this war or something like that.

53:28And if anyone could do it, it's him. Like he probably could just call Putin up and be like, bro, can you stop? And he'd be like, you're right. Send me a Tesla. Can we get one of those boring machines? Okay. Then we're in. That's all he wants. Yeah. Why not? Yeah. I want to just create a bunch of tunnels. Super speed tunnels. So that you can then come up into other countries and exactly. I want a boring machine so I can get there. Oh, on land or air people detect me underneath. Yes. Yeah. I just tried to pretend like nothing is happening because if I focus on all that stuff, I'm even less likely to get anything done.

54:11Yeah. Right. Very American of you though. Let's just pretend like nothing's happening. What's on Hulu tonight? I don't know. We're still finishing American Horror Story. Watch the first half of the previous one. I think the new one actually comes out soon. Like this week, last week, something like that. It's like NYC is the new one. If you haven't seen. Interesting. Now I watched the latest SNL, which had me on Hulu. Seeing some of the new content there. Yeah. We watched the first one of this season. But we haven't watched any of that. Yeah. Sorry. That's what I did. I watched the first one. I haven't watched the newest one.

54:47I'm like, well, let's just start here. I know Kendrick Lamar. Kung Fu Kenny. Kung Fu Kenny. Is that Kendrick Lamar? That's Kendrick Lamar. Hmm. I don't know. I don't know that. There you go. Thanks. Today I learned. I saw that there's a new Hellraiser movie. They've done like a reboot of Hellraiser. Hulu has new stuff all the time. And I learned in one of the emails I get. It was either the hustle or like the Robin Hood one. That Hulu will be 100% Disney owned in 2024. Disney Plus is going to go away and be part of Hulu. That would be interesting. I'm not sure why you'd want to do that. They built all this marketing up behind.

55:27But it's all one platform then. Yeah, I guess. And then you can like charge, you know, your bundle rates for just the one thing basically. Hmm. Yeah, but like, yes, PN Plus is also like its own thing. Is that also going to become Hulu? Yeah, which is dumb because you can't watch ESPN on ESPN Plus. Right. Which was weird because dish dropped ESPN or all Disney content for like a little while because they always do that. They're like, oh, we don't want to pay you what you want. And then, hey, I'm not going to pay for dish. If you don't have any of the Disney channels, because it's every channel that exists is owned by Disney.

56:03So try again. And so I bought like the Hulu live TV, even though we have no internet. And just like suffered through trying to watch football on that. No. But yeah, you can't watch it on the like you buy ESPN Plus and you can't watch the channel ESPN on ESPN Plus. So you can't watch like college game day and stuff, which is ridiculous. Anyway. Well, I don't know. These aren't problems I experience. Yeah. I don't have to go to Hulu for any of my content, sports content. A few things are on ESPN Plus, but not most. Some of them are on Paramount Plus. Like European really tournament stuff. Like Champions League, Europa League, a weird spot.

56:43Yep. And then Peacock has some matches because they got rid of NBC sports. And then they basically don't have, even though NBC has the Premier League's rights or whatever in the States, they don't put anything on NBC almost. Everyone's a mile you get it like over the air. And then otherwise you're on like TBS or something. I don't know. USA Network. Whichever one NBC owns. So I gotta like jump all over the place and eat five different places to watch. It's all of those. TBS, TNT, USA, all NBC. Yeah. Because when the Olympics are on, the Olympics are on all those channels. It's bullshit. That's what it is.

57:22Yep. You got like two companies that own everything. Universal and Disney. Yeah. Fox is like, hey, we're here. We're going to make weird news so that you can think we're relevant. And AT&T owns HBO, which is not bad, I guess. That's true. That's true. Warner Brothers and HBO. Yeah. I forget about Warner Brothers and like what Sony's doing and stuff. There's some stuff out there. But yeah. That's under the AT&T umbrella now. Yeah. Makes a little weird. But it's overwhelmingly Disney and Universal. Which seems like we should do something about that. We'll see. They should just declare them both monopolies

58:00take huge cuts of their money and give it to us to start a new network. That's what we're pivoting to. I have some experience in video. Yeah, there we go. And streaming. So there you go. I'm sure I could start a company there. We'll just get the newest iPhones because they do like Dolby 3D or whatever. And we're good. Oh, perfect. We should buy some of those before the end of the year. Just because. Yeah. All right. We're at time here. Sorry for the rant there. If you liked it, please subscribe. Remember to check out bitski.com slash shipship code. And if you want to hire us for some things, shipship.io.

58:35We will catch you next time. Leave us some good ratings and reviews. If you please. Thanks. Thanks for listening to WhiskeyWeb and What Not. This podcast is brought to you by Shipship or produced by podcast Royale. If you liked this episode, consider sharing it with a friend or two. Leave us a rating. Maybe a review as long as it's good. You can subscribe to future episodes on Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. For more info about shipship and this show, check out our website at shipship.io.